That's correct. The way I (and many more experienced than me) like to do it is doing several measurements in and around the general listening area, look for peaks and valleys that coincide. In a new room I'd pick out maybe 8 spots first time to get a feel for what/where to look for, then do adjustments/4 spot sweeps 3-4 times or until happy.
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That's per speaker btw. Different adjustment for different placement.
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That's per speaker btw. Different adjustment for different placement.
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Yes and no.
Wholheartedly agree that DSP is not a "fix all" solution, but you can most certainly take care of some issues if you use it right. Like every single tool or piece of equipment ever made, it is entirely possible to use it in a wrong area, the wrong way and for the wrong reasons.
Even doing some basic sweeps with an app on a modern phone using a calibrated mic like the 16.50$ dayton, will often help significantly in identifying potential issues in the room, equipment or signal chain.
You can even set up some basic DSP functions on the same phone through other apps if the phone is your primary source, no need for extra equipment.
Wholheartedly agree that DSP is not a "fix all" solution, but you can most certainly take care of some issues if you use it right. Like every single tool or piece of equipment ever made, it is entirely possible to use it in a wrong area, the wrong way and for the wrong reasons.
Even doing some basic sweeps with an app on a modern phone using a calibrated mic like the 16.50$ dayton, will often help significantly in identifying potential issues in the room, equipment or signal chain.
You can even set up some basic DSP functions on the same phone through other apps if the phone is your primary source, no need for extra equipment.
I don't want to use DSP for at least two reasons. Firstly, with vinyl replay it means inserting an ADC and DAC in the chain. I would prefer to remain in the analogue domain, I don't even have any transistors in the circuit; all valve. Secondly, as noted it only works fully at one position; my wife and I don't sit on each other's laps, at least not for listening. And thirdly, I can't remember exactly, but if you are trying to deal with a boost due to reflections it will cut the overall level, but the mixture will remain. Hazy memory, but something along those lines.
It often feels as though DSP is a "simple" solution for the digital generation, where any problem can be fixed digitally, rather than physically. Even when it can't.
It often feels as though DSP is a "simple" solution for the digital generation, where any problem can be fixed digitally, rather than physically. Even when it can't.
I will not go into some kind of flame war concerning vinyl vs whatever else, valves/tubes vs solid-state class A vs class D etc.
Not productive.
Everyone has bias and personal preference, just the way it is.
DSP *can* be used to optimize sound for a specific point in a specific room, but it is not meant to be used that way IMO.
It is not a "simple solution" or "quick-fix", it takes time, effort and understanding.
FYI, there are quite a few ADC/DAC solutions that would be completely transparent IE not subtract anything at all, unless you wish it, from your all valve analog setup.
Seeing as you wish to keep an all-analog setup (I can respect that, have done that myself in one of my rooms), you would still probably benefit quite a bit from using a calibrated mic to identify certain problems.
If you feel you are better off not knowing, that's fine too, falls under personal preference.
Not productive.
Everyone has bias and personal preference, just the way it is.
DSP *can* be used to optimize sound for a specific point in a specific room, but it is not meant to be used that way IMO.
It is not a "simple solution" or "quick-fix", it takes time, effort and understanding.
FYI, there are quite a few ADC/DAC solutions that would be completely transparent IE not subtract anything at all, unless you wish it, from your all valve analog setup.
Seeing as you wish to keep an all-analog setup (I can respect that, have done that myself in one of my rooms), you would still probably benefit quite a bit from using a calibrated mic to identify certain problems.
If you feel you are better off not knowing, that's fine too, falls under personal preference.
Well, I thought I was pointing out some reasons why DSP is not a panacea, but if you include that in your definition of bickering I will leave you to it.
Was not intending to add any further replies, just wondering about this:
I get it that you want to keep the thread to topic, and people do disagree about things, even here (like everywhere else).
But I have not really seen any veiled insults?
Heated debate? Perhaps, but not from my standpoint.
If someone was insulted/offended by something I wrote in this particular thread, I assure you it was not intentional.
Everyone is biased one way or another, everyone has personal opinions. It's only natural, but it should not get in the way of learning.
I get it that you want to keep the thread to topic, and people do disagree about things, even here (like everywhere else).
But I have not really seen any veiled insults?
Heated debate? Perhaps, but not from my standpoint.
If someone was insulted/offended by something I wrote in this particular thread, I assure you it was not intentional.
Everyone is biased one way or another, everyone has personal opinions. It's only natural, but it should not get in the way of learning.
" .... If someone was insulted/offended by something I wrote in this particular thread, I assure you it was not intentional. ...."
I see. Then perhaps I am the one who is in the wrong. I apologize. Many trolls are getting very clever nowadays, and I had thought that you were one of them. They start very subtly. It is only after awhile that they become fractious and antagonistic. To me, one of the early signs of a troll is that they disagree with another poster in a thread, and address them directly.
All posts in a thread should be directed to the original poster. If someone disagrees with a previous post in the thread, then they can target the OP with their variant view. No need to address (or even mention) the poster with whom they disagree. In other words, no heated debate. Confrontation is reduced, and antagonism is confined to the oblique.
You had said that, " .. Everyone is biased one way or another, everyone has personal opinions. ..." That is 100% true. A polite and considerate demeanor can keep them in check.
The very first post in this thread was my asking about another audio forum, where I could converse in plain language. I have not come here recently; I signed on 15 years ago. In those 15 years, I have read wonderful posts, full of information, from brilliant and generous people.
I've also seen some people, here and there, of whom I have no high opinion.
So, in a nutshell, I would say to all the people who have helped me, and helped me in that plain language, "Thank you! Thank you for your help and all the things that I have learned! It was greatly appreciated."
And so to everyone .......... Good bye. Jim
I see. Then perhaps I am the one who is in the wrong. I apologize. Many trolls are getting very clever nowadays, and I had thought that you were one of them. They start very subtly. It is only after awhile that they become fractious and antagonistic. To me, one of the early signs of a troll is that they disagree with another poster in a thread, and address them directly.
All posts in a thread should be directed to the original poster. If someone disagrees with a previous post in the thread, then they can target the OP with their variant view. No need to address (or even mention) the poster with whom they disagree. In other words, no heated debate. Confrontation is reduced, and antagonism is confined to the oblique.
You had said that, " .. Everyone is biased one way or another, everyone has personal opinions. ..." That is 100% true. A polite and considerate demeanor can keep them in check.
The very first post in this thread was my asking about another audio forum, where I could converse in plain language. I have not come here recently; I signed on 15 years ago. In those 15 years, I have read wonderful posts, full of information, from brilliant and generous people.
I've also seen some people, here and there, of whom I have no high opinion.
So, in a nutshell, I would say to all the people who have helped me, and helped me in that plain language, "Thank you! Thank you for your help and all the things that I have learned! It was greatly appreciated."
And so to everyone .......... Good bye. Jim
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Perhaps I've misunderstood the conversation earlier in this thread, I wanted to give you a more nuanced understanding of the current topic at hand.
You mention that your hearing mey perhaps be less than perfect (that's basicly every single human out there, perfection is merely a fictional ideal goal), the discussion starts changing direction towards room treatments.
And this is where I think some kind of measurement microphone might be a better place to start.
If you cannot be 100% certain exactly *what* to correct, then blindly starting with more invasive random room treatments may actually make matters worse.
Perhaps you have no interest in looking into DSP, which is perfectly fine, like I've said many times over, it's not some miraculous wonder medicine.
But it can be a good tool sometimes, and perhaps help you consider what room treatments are actually worth making sawdust over.
At any rate, the fact that you see me as some kind of invasive troll makes me reconsider a number of things...
You mention that your hearing mey perhaps be less than perfect (that's basicly every single human out there, perfection is merely a fictional ideal goal), the discussion starts changing direction towards room treatments.
And this is where I think some kind of measurement microphone might be a better place to start.
If you cannot be 100% certain exactly *what* to correct, then blindly starting with more invasive random room treatments may actually make matters worse.
Perhaps you have no interest in looking into DSP, which is perfectly fine, like I've said many times over, it's not some miraculous wonder medicine.
But it can be a good tool sometimes, and perhaps help you consider what room treatments are actually worth making sawdust over.
At any rate, the fact that you see me as some kind of invasive troll makes me reconsider a number of things...
I have been on this forum long enough, KaffiMann, to know you're not a troll - even if you do come from Norway and walk around barefooted!
Addressing myself to Jim now - I do hope you will come back after this little blip as I was really enjoying contributing to your thread.
I think the value and ability of digital correction is very exaggerated generally.
As previously stated it can be done to a high resolution, but only for one sweet spot, and that to me is not really worth doing because in other positions things can become much worse. Harmen's Toole is also of this view.
The peaks and troughs can be very high Q, and so difficult to accurately address.
As previously stated it can be done to a high resolution, but only for one sweet spot, and that to me is not really worth doing because in other positions things can become much worse. Harmen's Toole is also of this view.
The peaks and troughs can be very high Q, and so difficult to accurately address.
Clarke's third law - Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
I disagree even with the view that it can be done for one spot. Equalising to response doesn't account for that response being the result of signals that also have direction and timing differences. A resonance can sound wrong no matter where you set the dial.
Thanks Galu, you're welcome here any day, just call ahead first, I'll come pick you up at Gardermoen airport. We can walk barefoot in the forest and sample the wine selection.
Which is the exact reason I use DSP to deal with resonant behaviour, sure you're more or less limited to what you can make with an analog circuit. But then if you say DSP is trash the exact same can be said about passive filters or more classic active solutions.
You cannot deal with any kind of resonant behaviour, but on some it works very well, and you see wide areas around the frequency in question calm down significantly.
Brute force max flatness is just horrible, less is more.
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Sigh, people are so judgemental these days, be a bit and a half over 100kg, walk barefoot in the forest looking for berries and mushrooms, have a secret hoard of alcoholic beverages and all of a sudden you get the troll stamp.
Perhaps I can be a bit direct sometimes, but that falls under the "people are different" thing, right?
Anyways, have a good night people, the missus is shouting at me from the bedroom.
Which is the exact reason I use DSP to deal with resonant behaviour, sure you're more or less limited to what you can make with an analog circuit. But then if you say DSP is trash the exact same can be said about passive filters or more classic active solutions.
You cannot deal with any kind of resonant behaviour, but on some it works very well, and you see wide areas around the frequency in question calm down significantly.
Brute force max flatness is just horrible, less is more.
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Sigh, people are so judgemental these days, be a bit and a half over 100kg, walk barefoot in the forest looking for berries and mushrooms, have a secret hoard of alcoholic beverages and all of a sudden you get the troll stamp.
Perhaps I can be a bit direct sometimes, but that falls under the "people are different" thing, right?
Anyways, have a good night people, the missus is shouting at me from the bedroom.
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