I found out that my HF206 is simply a HF146 with an adapter. That opens the door to some more options as i can use 1.4" entry horns/waveguides.
I am currently unhappy with my PH 2380, and I suspect that the diffraction slot is causing the problems. Even though it is tuned rather warm, it still sounds shrill and honky even at moderate volumes.
The XT1464 looks like a much smoother transition all the way from the driver to the baffle, but it still has quite a long throat. I am worried about audible high order modes.
As in many other areas in this hobby, people seem to be divided on the matter of HOMs. Some say they don't matter, I definitely believe that they do. I would really appreciate if someone with a good understanding of the HOM-issue in horns and waveguides could give me their opinion on the XT1464.
I am currently unhappy with my PH 2380, and I suspect that the diffraction slot is causing the problems. Even though it is tuned rather warm, it still sounds shrill and honky even at moderate volumes.
The XT1464 looks like a much smoother transition all the way from the driver to the baffle, but it still has quite a long throat. I am worried about audible high order modes.
As in many other areas in this hobby, people seem to be divided on the matter of HOMs. Some say they don't matter, I definitely believe that they do. I would really appreciate if someone with a good understanding of the HOM-issue in horns and waveguides could give me their opinion on the XT1464.
Can't say i either believe or disbelieve HOMs, or that i have more than a layman's understanding of their technical origins.
But I have plenty of experience with the XT1464, including trying the recommended HOM reducing foam into them. (rather expensive stuff as i remember)
I tried several different thickness of foam in the throat, listened to and measured each. Various levels of VHF attenuation is all i could really tell from the different thicknesses.
Which didn't sound as good as no foam, until I added EQ to get frequency response back to pre-foam.
I was hoping to hear a simply cleaner sound after foam plus restoring EQ, but can't say I did.
Maybe my ears are too old to hear any very subtle improvements...dunno.
But i decided the foam wasn't worth bothering with.
Maybe the XT-1464 is just a relatively good horn that doesn't have strong HOM's....dunno.
I do know it measures the smoothest, on-axis vs off-axis, of any of the other similar sized horns I've tried, and remains my favorite.
But I have plenty of experience with the XT1464, including trying the recommended HOM reducing foam into them. (rather expensive stuff as i remember)
I tried several different thickness of foam in the throat, listened to and measured each. Various levels of VHF attenuation is all i could really tell from the different thicknesses.
Which didn't sound as good as no foam, until I added EQ to get frequency response back to pre-foam.
I was hoping to hear a simply cleaner sound after foam plus restoring EQ, but can't say I did.
Maybe my ears are too old to hear any very subtle improvements...dunno.
But i decided the foam wasn't worth bothering with.
Maybe the XT-1464 is just a relatively good horn that doesn't have strong HOM's....dunno.
I do know it measures the smoothest, on-axis vs off-axis, of any of the other similar sized horns I've tried, and remains my favorite.
HF146 on XT1464 sounds very "non horn like". The disadvantage is the small sweet spot.
Regards
Charles
Regards
Charles
The effect of HOMs varies between waveguides. The better they are to begin with, the less improvement there may be.
HOMs are also dependent on hearing sensitivity which is level dependent.
HOMs are also dependent on hearing sensitivity which is level dependent.
You guys are spot on with your comments, thank you. The issues I'm having with the 2380 could very well be HOMs. A foam plug helped slightly, and reduced the artefacts that was bothering me, but not by nearly enough. So for my next horn/waveguide I want to be sure that I pick a good design that is much less likely to have big problems with HOMs than the 2380.
If that is really the problem. Be careful you aren't chasing ghosts when the real cause is squirrels in the attic. 🙂
I bought one of the PH-2380 horns as I was using a pair of JBL 2385A horns and needed a centre channel to complete my front speakers. (I thought it was meant to be a copy of the JBLs)
When it arrived the difference in the throat / slot area was big. (I bought another JBL horn instead) I have never listened to the P Audio horn but can say that my JBL Horns did not sound shrill or honky.
Funny thing with horns (in my experience at least....) If they are running a bit too loud they can sound bright / shrill / harsh / tin can like/ etc etc. bring them down a bit at a time and suddenly everything snaps together and it becomes detailed / fast / dynamic etc etc....
Excuse my 'hifi' terms but you get the picture. 😀
Cheers,
Rob.
When it arrived the difference in the throat / slot area was big. (I bought another JBL horn instead) I have never listened to the P Audio horn but can say that my JBL Horns did not sound shrill or honky.
Funny thing with horns (in my experience at least....) If they are running a bit too loud they can sound bright / shrill / harsh / tin can like/ etc etc. bring them down a bit at a time and suddenly everything snaps together and it becomes detailed / fast / dynamic etc etc....
Excuse my 'hifi' terms but you get the picture. 😀
Cheers,
Rob.
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Wow, I was perusing this thread when I realized that I was completely unaware that HOMS was a controversial topic. I learned something today! And I noticed that some strong discussion took place on another thread - further learning !
Gedlee, wouldn't perforated horns eliminate HOMs?
If you really research what Earl was saying.
1. HOM's are mathematically "proven". (..and he is the expert.)
2. HOM's are unlikely to be audible until sound pressure levels become quite loud: like over 100db at 1 meter. This is quite likely to negate the issue in most domestic conditions, but is still relevant with sound reinforcement, night club use, etc..
-that's not to say though that resonances and reflections from poorly coupled drivers and horns won't be easily audible, but it certainly doesn't mean that diffraction and HOM's in particular are the cause.
ANY junction could be a problem, so you've not only got the driver to horn as a potential problem, but also the driver to coupler.
The only problem I "see" with the XT1464 is that the entrance angle is about 10 degrees (or about what the exit angle of their neo 1.4" drivers are). The 146 is almost 30 degrees: which is really wide.
1. HOM's are mathematically "proven". (..and he is the expert.)
2. HOM's are unlikely to be audible until sound pressure levels become quite loud: like over 100db at 1 meter. This is quite likely to negate the issue in most domestic conditions, but is still relevant with sound reinforcement, night club use, etc..
-that's not to say though that resonances and reflections from poorly coupled drivers and horns won't be easily audible, but it certainly doesn't mean that diffraction and HOM's in particular are the cause.
ANY junction could be a problem, so you've not only got the driver to horn as a potential problem, but also the driver to coupler.
The only problem I "see" with the XT1464 is that the entrance angle is about 10 degrees (or about what the exit angle of their neo 1.4" drivers are). The 146 is almost 30 degrees: which is really wide.
I figured that what people call horn honk is actually HOMS, perhaps i'm wrong.
Would the faitalpro LTH142 better match the HF146 angle maybe?
Would the faitalpro LTH142 better match the HF146 angle maybe?
You are wrong, yes. 🙂
Mostly it's level and it's EQ. Get your crossover right and horns don't honk. At least most that have been accused of it don't. Horns get a bad reputation because so often the crossovers aren't great. And they are run too loud as Rob mentions.
Mostly it's level and it's EQ. Get your crossover right and horns don't honk. At least most that have been accused of it don't. Horns get a bad reputation because so often the crossovers aren't great. And they are run too loud as Rob mentions.
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why is ‘too loud’ an issue for a horn - or do you mean it’s driver distortion from being abused?
My 2380 driven by a HF206 doesnt sound good no matter how its crossed or EQ'ed. Starting at above 90db/1m there are obvious artefacts in the sound around 1-3khz. I've tried 4-8order at everywhere between 500 and 1khz and tried fine tuning the response with FIR-filters.
It just doesn't sound plausible that the term "horn honk" is always only describing a poorly executed crossover.
This one looks like it has a wider entry angle but not as smooth transition to baffle:
Replacement Horn KLIPSCH for K510 Speaker Cabinet 15" x 9" Bolt On 2" 90degx 60deg 653753250422 | eBay
It just doesn't sound plausible that the term "horn honk" is always only describing a poorly executed crossover.
This one looks like it has a wider entry angle but not as smooth transition to baffle:
Replacement Horn KLIPSCH for K510 Speaker Cabinet 15" x 9" Bolt On 2" 90degx 60deg 653753250422 | eBay
I meant within the context of the full range signal. I don't know whether it's because of the bandpass nature of horns or the directionality but if they're run higher in spl than the other drivers in a multi way speaker they stick out like a sore thumb. (might be due to power response vs on axis response ? )
Rob.
It's likely that the LTH142 would be a better match as far as angle is concerned.
"Honk" as a problem description probably means different things to different people.
Sometimes it's described in relation to an overload condition on the low-end of the horn and driver, and predictably the "honk" is lower in freq..
With enough horn expansion (in relation to less horn depth) this is far less likely to occur, HOWEVER the suspension of the driver may be so over-driven that you still end-up with something similar. Both (and perhaps both at the same time) would factor-in to a poor crossover design.
Other times it's described in relation to a very high freq. response problem (that "trails" down lower in freq.) that lends a "piercing" quality to the sound: a "squawk" - which is almost always a function of poor driver coupling to the horn and/or adapter. (..the coupling needs to be smooth.)
Finally, it could also be a lower freq. problem where the horn is actually vibrating and generating substantive sound (usually from a larger opening and flair that doesn't have sufficient mechanical damping).
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I've always liked this guys definition of horn honk...
scroll down till you see it...good stuff in the thread
Factors Affecting Sonic Quality of Mid & HF Horns & Waveguides
Yes, what Rob said above. Too loud in relation to the other drivers. A common mistake.
I'm not saying that you can take just any old horn and driver combo and make it sing. But most of what I have heard - and heard other people describe as honk is just bad crossover. Usually a midrange hump or bad choice of crossover point.
I've heard the famous anti-HOM waveguides a few times and they don't honk. The crossover is well designed. They do get ragged if played loud. Nothing is perfect.
I'm not saying that you can take just any old horn and driver combo and make it sing. But most of what I have heard - and heard other people describe as honk is just bad crossover. Usually a midrange hump or bad choice of crossover point.
I've heard the famous anti-HOM waveguides a few times and they don't honk. The crossover is well designed. They do get ragged if played loud. Nothing is perfect.
They've been known about for the better part of a century. Back in the time of your link, some members that couldn't visualise or accept the idea were arguing that HOMs didn't exist.
Much work was done on diyAudio then on how to reduce HOMs in horns we build. Now when members ask if 'x' commercial horn is low on HOMs, it is a bit of a guess. Measuring can show these effects.
I can hear level dependent harshness (ie resembling diffraction, AKA HOMs) with normal box speakers at typical listening levels. Then, at higher levels with some horns I've built. If the waveguide is good enough I can make the cone hit the phase plug before there is any harshness.
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I have heard of HOMs some time ago and took it for granted that they existed and were never in question, but rather a parasitic property of horns to be minimized. That old thread I referenced says that HOMs have not been measured or proven. What published measurements now exist that didn’t back then ? If I go to a horn vendor, will they have a measured HOM specification?