Hi all. I'm hoping to build a WAW with my Alpair 7ms once some plans are released. I'm a bit confused about how to do the crossover as I've seen a few options such as using mini dsp, hypex plate amps, and a PLLXO (which I'm not sure how to implement). I have very little knowledge on this kind of thing and I've been trying to find out more but I haven't had much luck.
I currently only have a couple of integrated stereo amps so I was thinking of going with a minidsp 2x4 HD, but I've read conflicting reviews on it, some people saying it's great and some people saying it sounds no good. So then my other thought was to use a couple of plate amps (if I'm able to return my recently purchased amp), but I've not seen much info on how good these actually are, especially the cheapest ones which are about £280 per amp (for the hypex ones).
I'd appreciate it if anyone could give me their opinions on any of these things or any other suitable alternatives. I was also wondering how to actually implement a PLLXO if I were to go down that route. My apologies in advance if there have already been some similar topics, but I've not been able to find them and I think I'm just about inside my returns window for my amp still if I need to do that, so I can't waste too much time trying to figre out what's best 🙂
I currently only have a couple of integrated stereo amps so I was thinking of going with a minidsp 2x4 HD, but I've read conflicting reviews on it, some people saying it's great and some people saying it sounds no good. So then my other thought was to use a couple of plate amps (if I'm able to return my recently purchased amp), but I've not seen much info on how good these actually are, especially the cheapest ones which are about £280 per amp (for the hypex ones).
I'd appreciate it if anyone could give me their opinions on any of these things or any other suitable alternatives. I was also wondering how to actually implement a PLLXO if I were to go down that route. My apologies in advance if there have already been some similar topics, but I've not been able to find them and I think I'm just about inside my returns window for my amp still if I need to do that, so I can't waste too much time trying to figre out what's best 🙂
It's a bit subjective. Some like me don't like DSP and/or chipamps in general. I'm more a tube and full analog type of guy. But MiniDSP HD is great as DSP and unbeatable for it's price. And there are also rather good sounding class D and chipamps availeble today. The question is, what do you like the most...
Btw, i amp my waw setup (Mark Audio Alpair 10M gen 3 and Scanspeak 26W8534G00 in sealed cabinets) with an 32W tube amp and use a passive crossover. Others do it succesfully otherwise...
Btw, i amp my waw setup (Mark Audio Alpair 10M gen 3 and Scanspeak 26W8534G00 in sealed cabinets) with an 32W tube amp and use a passive crossover. Others do it succesfully otherwise...
All of those XO options can work. The DSP options are much more versatile and powerful, but also somewhat dependent on what kind of system you plug them into. If you are using a digital source and can feed them digital signal you bypass the analog to digital conversion process.
The miniDSP gets mixed reviews, since the inexpensive one is, inexpensive, which means that the analog sections are cheap, and as such perhaps problematic. How they are percieved also depends on how resolving the speaker they are connected to (and the rest of the system) and how resolving the human doin gthe listening is. I would only consider the one that requires your own DACs (making it not that inexpensive anymore), and only use with digital in. And i am still waiting for 24/192 Hz resolution.
There are also analog active XOs. I am eagerly awaiting Nelson Pass’ diyAudio store version of the B4.
The big asset sof a PLLXO are that it is cheap (often less than the cables needed, and the box & connectors if you go that far). Each channel has onlty 3 passive parts (2 Cs, 1R) and introduces NO electronic haze. The downside is that it is not that versatile, but a well designed WAW is ideal for its use and the limitations can be designed around it, then its simplicity becomes an asset. The HP section values are dependent on the amplifier you use since part of the circuit is the Rin of the amplifier.
More can be found here: TLS.org | Passive Line-Level Crossover
I would suggest starting with a PLLXO and if it works great, if it does not you have spent next to nothing.
A tidbit on DSP XO (Crown) vrs PLLXO in a WAW: Alpair 7.3eN/12pw WAW build
dave
The miniDSP gets mixed reviews, since the inexpensive one is, inexpensive, which means that the analog sections are cheap, and as such perhaps problematic. How they are percieved also depends on how resolving the speaker they are connected to (and the rest of the system) and how resolving the human doin gthe listening is. I would only consider the one that requires your own DACs (making it not that inexpensive anymore), and only use with digital in. And i am still waiting for 24/192 Hz resolution.
There are also analog active XOs. I am eagerly awaiting Nelson Pass’ diyAudio store version of the B4.
The big asset sof a PLLXO are that it is cheap (often less than the cables needed, and the box & connectors if you go that far). Each channel has onlty 3 passive parts (2 Cs, 1R) and introduces NO electronic haze. The downside is that it is not that versatile, but a well designed WAW is ideal for its use and the limitations can be designed around it, then its simplicity becomes an asset. The HP section values are dependent on the amplifier you use since part of the circuit is the Rin of the amplifier.
More can be found here: TLS.org | Passive Line-Level Crossover
I would suggest starting with a PLLXO and if it works great, if it does not you have spent next to nothing.
A tidbit on DSP XO (Crown) vrs PLLXO in a WAW: Alpair 7.3eN/12pw WAW build
dave
Thanks for your response. I'm not too concerned about the means of crossing over really, digital or analogue. My main concern is the sound quality at the end and the cost based on what I have now and what I'd need to do next. I've never had a tube amp before so that would be something I'd look to try in the future 🙂
Thanks for the response, Dave. PLLXO does seem most interesting to me because of the simplicity. I'm admittedly a total amateur in DIY audio (which is one of the reasons I went for a fullrange driver) and I've been trying to read more about this type of XO. I'm probably being stupid but I'm not sure how or where exactly to implement this XO. Would it be possible with the integrated amps I have now? The amps aren't the same model either so I'm not sure if that adds any extra complications.
MiniDSP and a set of two Class D amps is your best bet and most flexible option. It sounds fine for 97% of DIY stuff. Your speakers have more distortion than your amps so don’t let people who like ultra low distortion amps or expensive DACs or DSPs etc dissuade you.
I learned a lot about all types of XO’s with an $80 miniDSP 2x4. Two $15 TPA3116 Class D amps.
Passive line level works but requires an amp with a fixed input impedance. And once designed for that input impedance, cannot be moved to another amp with a different input impedance.
If you like experimenting - PLLXO is very limiting and can get expensive ordering countless parts. They add up - do you ever get away from an order to Mouser or Digikey for less than $40?
You need a microphone too. I recommend the UMIK-1 usb - seamless integration with miniDSP and works well.
Now that I know what I am doing more worh XO’s - I design passive speaker level ones to use with my nice Class A amps.
I tried PLLXO but did not find it easier. Too finicky.
Good luck!
I learned a lot about all types of XO’s with an $80 miniDSP 2x4. Two $15 TPA3116 Class D amps.
Passive line level works but requires an amp with a fixed input impedance. And once designed for that input impedance, cannot be moved to another amp with a different input impedance.
If you like experimenting - PLLXO is very limiting and can get expensive ordering countless parts. They add up - do you ever get away from an order to Mouser or Digikey for less than $40?
You need a microphone too. I recommend the UMIK-1 usb - seamless integration with miniDSP and works well.
Now that I know what I am doing more worh XO’s - I design passive speaker level ones to use with my nice Class A amps.
I tried PLLXO but did not find it easier. Too finicky.
Good luck!
With any bi-amp setup you need a pre-amp, so the question is, does either of your integrated amps have a pre-amp out, power amp in? If not things become problematic, but might be able to be worked around.
Any line level XO slots inbetween the pre-amp and the power amps in. Sometimes the tap-loop can be used (i think).
dave
Another advantage of separate woofers is the ability to position and EQ them to fight room modes.
Thanks for your reply, the first time I saw the idea to use the mini dsp was from one of your threads I believe. I know from experience it can sometimes be hard to hear differences between DACs and amps, but I also know at other times there is quite a clear difference which would be my concern going with cheap amps and minidsp. Especially as the cost of the drivers would be quite high, I wouldn't want to fall too short on other parts on the system. It's just a little confusing as I've seen some people say the minidsp is excellent and some people have said that it noticably degrades sound quality. I like the versatility it offers, though.
Neither of my amps hav a pre-amp out, I thought it'd be the case that I'd need a separate pre-amp. I do have the possibility to return this amp within the next few days (checked with the retailer) so I'm considering that, it'd leave me with a budget of around £550 for new amplification so I'd have to look round to see if that would be enough. It's either that or go with a regular passive XO, but I was concerned as you previously mentioned it may get quite expensive to make the passive XO for this speaker. Do you have any estimates of how high the cost could be?
I definitely agree with that, but I was hoping to build one of the new plans from Dave and Scott once they are finished, rather than go with separate subs. I like the idea of having speakers without subs, even though I know that subs can sound good when integrated well.
Ask him if he has an integrated with pre-out/power-in, you won’t need much power for the top (10-20w).
dave
I hate to champion something just because I own it and like it, but the Zoudio amp works well with my WAW - and does the needed crossover portion as a feature of the amp itself.
It's also all-digital signal path, so no coupling capacitors, RCA cables to connect components, direct to speaker connection (no crossovers needed)
Admittedly, it sorta takes the fun out of getting to endlessly screw with various factors, like tube rolling and cable upgrades - more like a router where you set and forget - then enjoy the performance. Almost like Apple vs PC...
The price is very reasonable, but you'll need a 24V powersupply and that's a variable. It's easily possible to run it from batteries and avoid any AC line / ground loop concerns completely.
I like the sound of it. TI did something right, which I think sounds better than my miniDSP V1, which I could only use for the low-pass portion of the crossover. I had to run the FR, FR to get the "top" transparency I was used to straight out of the DAC, i.e. before the V1 unit touched it to make a high pass output.
I have to believe it was something to do with the analog signal from my DAC getting re-digitized, processed and then converted back to analog to get to my chip-amp.
Last edited:
I'll look into that. I also realised one of my amps has an output for recording, so I'm going to see if it's possible to get both the amps working together through that. I'm still not sure how to implement the XO in this case though
Thanks for the suggestion, I've not seen this amp before and it sounds like it could be a simple solution. I'll have a look into it in some detail later 🙂 what drivers are you running for your speakers?
A simple preamp that I used to use is a behringer ultralink. Behringer MX882 V2 – Thomann UK
Yes behringer has some QC issues but before I bought the minidsp 8x8 (which is great and I recomend despite its issues) it was very handy for bass management and routing balanced/unbalanced signals. You could of course use any pro mixer, tbh. I'm a bit biased as I prefer stuff in neat racks than hifi stacks.
I'm a fan of minidsp and modern amps and agree with xrk that there a bigger fish to fry than get het up here. Dsp offers tonnes of flexibility and future proofed your tinkering possibilities.
A passive line level xo, to me, is more of a novelty. Although curious I've never had the need nor required the benefits they may offer to attempt one when other options offer drop of the hat experimentation.
I had the a7ms and they were nice in the sweet spot.
Yes behringer has some QC issues but before I bought the minidsp 8x8 (which is great and I recomend despite its issues) it was very handy for bass management and routing balanced/unbalanced signals. You could of course use any pro mixer, tbh. I'm a bit biased as I prefer stuff in neat racks than hifi stacks.
I'm a fan of minidsp and modern amps and agree with xrk that there a bigger fish to fry than get het up here. Dsp offers tonnes of flexibility and future proofed your tinkering possibilities.
A passive line level xo, to me, is more of a novelty. Although curious I've never had the need nor required the benefits they may offer to attempt one when other options offer drop of the hat experimentation.
I had the a7ms and they were nice in the sweet spot.
Last edited:
I thot about it and it is impractical sinc eit has a fixed output level so adjusting the volume would screw things up.
dave
If concerned about SQ of the base miniDSP, spend more and get the 8 channel HD version. Be careful though - some of the more advanced ones require separate DACs etc.
The Sigma Studio DSP software suite used with Analog Devices ADAU-1452 EVM is also very good from sound quality and features. It allows graphical programming of very complex processing chains and can do FIR filters. About $250 for 8 channels.
The Sigma Studio DSP software suite used with Analog Devices ADAU-1452 EVM is also very good from sound quality and features. It allows graphical programming of very complex processing chains and can do FIR filters. About $250 for 8 channels.
Thanks for all your responses. It looks like there's a lot to think about. I think I'm going to return my amp and look into this some more, then make my purchase once there's some plans for those 7ms WAW 🙂
I'm running the Lii Audio F15s with some Wharfdale model 18's for the Assist. One day I may upgrade the 18's to Goldwoods... Here's a pic w/o the grilles 🙄
Attachments
What plans are you waiting for? It's an easy one to concoct! In my infancy I had some great help from Scottmoose and GM doing this very thing!
My recipe ended up as follows:
- A7MS 3.45l Cabinet tuned to FS (GM recommended this alignment due to ultra low group delay and driver efficiency)
- MiniDSP 2x4BAL (balanced wasn't essential but always good to have on hand)
- 2 x SB Acoustics 8" subs in sealed cabinets
- 2 x Parasound Zamp Amps (I still use these for my mids and tweeters and they can be found dirt cheap on ebay)
It starts about here: MLTL Floorstanders for Alpair 7MS
You may find you get bitten by the speaker building bug so my advice would be to not settle on a design but make it modular so you can chop and change in the future 🙂
Attachments
Last edited:
LF DSP for WAW?
Interesting thread. I have been reading and scheming the last year or two on knocking up an affordable FAST or WAW solution. While I am convinced that miniDSP HD + UMIK-1 is probably the best solution and great investment, it has been outside of my budget to date. But I recently became aware of a more budget and very interesting solution. A very new product and looks like it can be specifically useful in a WAW setup. Anybody here tried this?
Dayton Audio DSP-LF Low Frequency DSP Controller
Interesting thread. I have been reading and scheming the last year or two on knocking up an affordable FAST or WAW solution. While I am convinced that miniDSP HD + UMIK-1 is probably the best solution and great investment, it has been outside of my budget to date. But I recently became aware of a more budget and very interesting solution. A very new product and looks like it can be specifically useful in a WAW setup. Anybody here tried this?
Dayton Audio DSP-LF Low Frequency DSP Controller