I still suspect it´s not a problem of Mic Vs Line channels but a compressor issue.
All channels go through it.
It isn´t that Mic channels work well and Line ones work bad but the **program** going through each is absolutely different.
Singer>mic>preamp is flat/"natural" and only EQ or processing are the ones YOU add.
Prerecorded Music is*heavily* processed, voice gets high treble boost for transparency, mid boost for intelligibility, mid bass boost for warmth, the works.
Heavy compression enhances defects.
All channels go through it.
It isn´t that Mic channels work well and Line ones work bad but the **program** going through each is absolutely different.
Singer>mic>preamp is flat/"natural" and only EQ or processing are the ones YOU add.
Prerecorded Music is*heavily* processed, voice gets high treble boost for transparency, mid boost for intelligibility, mid bass boost for warmth, the works.
Heavy compression enhances defects.
Good to know I might have been on to something. As for your question, I honestly don't have any experiences with such fixes. But, if that turns out to be the issue, how much harder could it be than swapping a car engine? lol
In regards to the compressor JMFahey, so your saying it effects all channels regardless of whether or not they have a compressor knob? If so, what do I do about that? And what might have caused it to recently become an issue?
I have not tried bypassing the mixer and just using the laptop, but all add that to my trouble shooting list.
I also have not tried the USB connection, simply because that is not the setup I inherited and I've always used analog inputs for the few other systems I've worked with. So thats another bit of the whole set up to check. Does that require special software to talk to the mixer, or does the computer just think it is an external sound card?
Looks like I have a decent number of things to go through now. As always, thanks so much for the help!
Speakers are minimum phase devices so any peaking in the response also comes with ringing. Thankfully, the effect of an extended decay can be subjectively balanced out by reducing the amplitude, so an EQ can still help.
Sibilance is usually caused by a very narrow band of frequencies being too loud, usually due to breakup from the speaker drivers themselves. If you kill all of the treble with an EQ you'll make it less painful to listen to, but now everything will sound muffled and it will still have that sibilant character to it because that narrow band of frequencies will still be playing much louder than the rest of the treble.
If you have a parametric equaliser capability, try creating a notch filter about -10dB and Q=~5. Then while listening to sibilant content, slowly sweep the frequency of the notch between 3kHz and 12kHz. At some point you should hear an improvement. Once you have it centred on the problem frequency you can play with the amount of attenuation and Q until it sounds best.
You may need more than one notch filter if there are multiple sibilant breakup nodes.
I answered based on Turk´s comment below:
IF your mixer does indeed have a "single knob compressor" built in, it must be in the Master section, so *all* channels go through it.
I guess you are actually using it even without realizing it
Will search and download MG12 User Manual (hope I find it) but in principle I think it will be a very simple one (duh!!), and optimized for plain voice picked up by a microphone (which is the main use), and such compressor might struggle with heavily processed Music.
OK, justb found it.
Channels 1-4 have those "one knob" compressors, they are not in the Master section as I expected, guess processing power is getting cheaper every day
IF you are using one of those channels (they are dual XLR/Plug input) simply set compression to 0, you don´t need it.
And if not, then you have another problem.
Since "turning treble down dulls everything" you might have to patch a stereo Graphic Equalizer in series with prerecorded Music program only, probably between Laptop Audio out and Mixer Aux/Line in and selectively turn down offending frequencies only.
Don´t see you have many other possibilities open.
Re re thinking it, maybe you can download and add a virtual Graphic Equalizer inside the Laptop music player and use it to correct *just* the Music program.
Basic same functionaluty and definitely you can´t beat the cost
IMO Compressors are a complete waste, not that my music is so much to brag about. But at the very least it's done sans compressors!
Takes a bit more tweaking, but you can actually turn (most of, depends on the "sound"you're going for as well) the tunes up and it just sounds better, as opposed to AAAAAARGHHH!
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My own experience is limited so I have to make conclusions based on limited data or otherwise I'll never move-on.
And one of these conclusions is that sibilance from a speaker is a deal-killer. It is very unlikely it will be fixed by fiddling with the speaker itself (I have tried!) and the best long-term solution has always been to move on to a better speaker. Some folk like a 'hot' speaker and they are welcome to those.
Same story with DACs. Of all those DACs that I have auditioned, whether internal or external, some produce irritation. You realize what is happening when you become selective about the type of music, about how long you can listen in one session etc. Forget file sizes, formats and cables - dump the DAC and move on. Life is short.
Sibilance from amplifiers is worth working with to address.
You should not need to work with a De-esser - at least it's my opinion that these are things for the recording artist to worry about when they can't get the singer to keep the microphone out of their mouth. But the time the music is recorded it should already have been addressed to the extent that the producer is happy.
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OK update for y'all! We had a dance tonight and I didn't get a chance to try eliminating all the components before it started. I am a training another guy to use the system (talk about the blind leading the blind, lol) so I ran out of time.
I did however get the chance to listen to the laptop with headphones and was not able to hear sibilance. I also found out after more intentional testing that the isolator is doing no favors for the sound quality. Not a huge surprise since its a cheapo unit for car stereos. I only thought I'd try it because there were several reviews from people who said they used it for their PA systems and it worked well. So I need to find a different option for that.
However, the most important thing I found out is that the RCA inputs sound like garbage. I switched to using one of the mono/stereo channels with 1/4 plugs, and the difference it made was amazing. Part of this was because it has a 3 band EQ, but even with this flat the music sounded much more clear. It has a PAD switch as well, so I was able to turn up the laptop volume which probably also helped.
It didn't completely get rid of the sibilance, but at least it was to the level that you wouldn't notice it if you werent listening for it. I think the next step is to get a better isolator and a EQ for the computer. For the isolator, what point in the system do I wan't to put it? I had put one on the laptop input cable because it seemed like that was where the majority of the noise was coming from. I'm assuming you'd want one before your audio gets amplified at the mixer?
And as for an EQ program, any suggestions? Is there anything worthwhile that is student budget friendly?
Lastly, are the mixer effects are for vocals and instruments only? Thats what I had been told, but someone told me that they can be used with prerecorded music to stop echo and that they might help with the sibilance. Anyone have any idea if thats so?
As always, thanks for your help. I had a few people tell me they thought it sounded really good tonight. You guys are the best!
I did however get the chance to listen to the laptop with headphones and was not able to hear sibilance. I also found out after more intentional testing that the isolator is doing no favors for the sound quality. Not a huge surprise since its a cheapo unit for car stereos. I only thought I'd try it because there were several reviews from people who said they used it for their PA systems and it worked well. So I need to find a different option for that.
However, the most important thing I found out is that the RCA inputs sound like garbage. I switched to using one of the mono/stereo channels with 1/4 plugs, and the difference it made was amazing. Part of this was because it has a 3 band EQ, but even with this flat the music sounded much more clear. It has a PAD switch as well, so I was able to turn up the laptop volume which probably also helped.
It didn't completely get rid of the sibilance, but at least it was to the level that you wouldn't notice it if you werent listening for it. I think the next step is to get a better isolator and a EQ for the computer. For the isolator, what point in the system do I wan't to put it? I had put one on the laptop input cable because it seemed like that was where the majority of the noise was coming from. I'm assuming you'd want one before your audio gets amplified at the mixer?
And as for an EQ program, any suggestions? Is there anything worthwhile that is student budget friendly?
Lastly, are the mixer effects are for vocals and instruments only? Thats what I had been told, but someone told me that they can be used with prerecorded music to stop echo and that they might help with the sibilance. Anyone have any idea if thats so?
As always, thanks for your help. I had a few people tell me they thought it sounded really good tonight. You guys are the best!
An automobile isolator gadget shouldn't be needed to connect a sound card output to a PA system. No need to do it for a home hifi either. If there are ground noise issues then some fix may be needed, but not necessarily an 'isolator.' No reason to add extra stuff if good sound can be achieved without it. Same goes for a PC EQ. Most of them make sound quality worse in some ways. So does Windows Sound Engine when it resamples everything on the fly without telling you, hence use ASIO drivers when possible and configure Windows to leave the device alone. In other words remove stuff that is not needed, having unneeded stuff often will make things worse.
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There is a difference between the behavior of loudspeaker drivers and loudspeaker systems. I have seen systems with ports or other parts that make nice Helmholtz resonators.
I think in the case here the term sibilance may be misused.
From the added reported bits it might just be input clipping, balanced to unbalanced errors or just an unknown capacitor high pass filter by accident.
There's lots, dont know what software you're using, there's probably some EQ functions in there.
There's also some EQ functions in windows now.
I'd steer clear of anything "windows" for sound, but it does have it's uses if you're trying to avoid complicating things.
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Oh, and a +1 on conanski's post here.
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