The crowd has given you very pessimistic answers like "different speakers for left and right channel is not acceptable" - here is a different perspective: do try it out! but not as a final setup in terms of investment of time and money, but as experimentation even if just to see how it sound and how it correlates with what the forum people said. I have tried it many times and learned interesting things from it, things I would like one day to incorporate in a final setup. The reality is that you don't separate the channels when you mix the sound of two drivers, you always keep a left-right symmetry, like in a 2 way speaker which does mix successfully the sound of two drivers. Problems like - different sensitivity (one will sound louder than the other), phase inconsistency in certain areas of frequency band, or simply sounding too different will compromise high fidelity; I suspect in mono "sound mode" if you place two different full range drivers next to each other they might have the effects you were hoping for.
Yes! smaller units have better highs and better dispersion in the high freq department, and the 5 inch area is the middle ground. Enclosure and driver design can compensate the low frequency output levels for small membranes (for example MarkAudio drivers are made on purpose to have larger excursion to move more air = to have better lows). Also - as the membrane gets bigger you have higher sensitivity (more sound output for same amount of electrical energy, so better conversion) or a louder speaker. Another thing is that small drivers can't handle large rooms, they are just too small to take care of lows for a large volume of air, and you will need more power to reach same SPL in a larger room, there are limits to small membranes.
Yes! smaller units have better highs and better dispersion in the high freq department, and the 5 inch area is the middle ground. Enclosure and driver design can compensate the low frequency output levels for small membranes (for example MarkAudio drivers are made on purpose to have larger excursion to move more air = to have better lows). Also - as the membrane gets bigger you have higher sensitivity (more sound output for same amount of electrical energy, so better conversion) or a louder speaker. Another thing is that small drivers can't handle large rooms, they are just too small to take care of lows for a large volume of air, and you will need more power to reach same SPL in a larger room, there are limits to small membranes.
here is completely different suggestion for yatr98...
two small fullrange drivers in small boxes with subwoofer
advantage: fullrange drivers are liberated from producing very low frequencies, so the midrange and heights can actually sound good and not muddied by horrible distortion small drivers produce below 100Hz
easy to place for optimal sound
sub can be hidden, self powered by plate amp, so cheap these days
or plenty amps these days offer two outputs for left and right speaker + sub output
simple, even for non audiophiles
two small fullrange drivers in small boxes with subwoofer
advantage: fullrange drivers are liberated from producing very low frequencies, so the midrange and heights can actually sound good and not muddied by horrible distortion small drivers produce below 100Hz
easy to place for optimal sound
sub can be hidden, self powered by plate amp, so cheap these days
or plenty amps these days offer two outputs for left and right speaker + sub output
simple, even for non audiophiles
I've tried all these solutions, and I prefer the sound of full rangers doing the entire spectrum (at appropriate SPL*), rather than some cheap sub doing sloppy bass. Also, with a sub, he'll need something to do the crossover. Whether it is active or passive, digital or analog, it adds complexity and requires knowledge to implement properly - this doesn't equal "simple" for someone new to this, and still the cheap sub will be a one-note wonder.
* Please note that the video I posted is not an example of what I consider appropriate SPL for those full range drivers. They are being pushed well beyond their Xmax and if the distortion was measured it would be quite high. With a much better amp and reasonable SPL, the distortion is negligible.
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there is plenty 2.1 amplifier, where besides the left and right channel, there is directly output to sub, crossover included
while not audiophile, plenty to choose from
Yuan-Jing LM1875 2.1 Channel Amplifier Board 2 x 25W + 1 x 50W
TPS3116D2 Class D 2.1 Bluetooth 5.0 Amplifier Board 2 x 50W + 100W with Filter and Volume Controls
and he pays more, even in the box...
Dayton Audio DTA-2.1BT2 100W 2.1 Class D Bluetooth Amplifier with Sub Frequency Adjustment
while not audiophile, plenty to choose from
Yuan-Jing LM1875 2.1 Channel Amplifier Board 2 x 25W + 1 x 50W
TPS3116D2 Class D 2.1 Bluetooth 5.0 Amplifier Board 2 x 50W + 100W with Filter and Volume Controls
and he pays more, even in the box...
Dayton Audio DTA-2.1BT2 100W 2.1 Class D Bluetooth Amplifier with Sub Frequency Adjustment
Thanks again for all your suggestions. Basically, my story is this...right now Iisten to my music through my computer through an old tivoli audio Model One and an old Model 88 by Henry Kloss. Basically desktop listening. I recently went to a audio store near me which sold nothing but tube amps and high efficiency speakers. I had no idea what he was talking about, but listening to the stuff that was coming out of a simply italy amp and a pair of omega speakers was real impressive. The more I started to research, about omega speakers and full range drivers...well you get the idea. I started to say to myself, why can't I do this? Or at least try.
I can't experiment with different drivers, because I don't have any. All I have is an old stereo receiver from the 70s that I thought I could enjoy before replacing it will a tube amp. All this to say, I want to keep it simple so I don't get discouraged.
Question, if I try one the Mark Audio drivers, will they be OK to work with a basic tube amp that I will eventually purchase?
Thanks!
I can't experiment with different drivers, because I don't have any. All I have is an old stereo receiver from the 70s that I thought I could enjoy before replacing it will a tube amp. All this to say, I want to keep it simple so I don't get discouraged.
Question, if I try one the Mark Audio drivers, will they be OK to work with a basic tube amp that I will eventually purchase?
Thanks!
Yatr98 a simple single driver in a large open baffle can be a simple, not too expensive introduction. See Wild Burro Audio Labs - DIY Full Range Speakers (no affiliation).
That said I'm a Mark Audio / tube amp fan myself, the FH3 with the right amp is a sublime combo.
That said I'm a Mark Audio / tube amp fan myself, the FH3 with the right amp is a sublime combo.
Absolutely, 100% - far better than "OK".
EDIT: Maybe you'll get bit by the DIY bug and build your own tube amp Tubelab SSE | Tubelab
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An amp with a built-in crossover adjustment is a nice (even if not "hi-fi") solution, adason.
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Reminds me of a thread I saw once where a poor man’s active crossover for mono was suggested by using left to play treble via high pass filter applied in a program like Audacity, and bass was on right as a low pass filter. This way, a stereo output could be forced to play mono 2-way. You would need to apply a mono function first then do the XO split. It worked. I tested with a headphone and had treble in left ear and bass in right ear. Your brain adjusts and it all sort of integrates after getting used to it. Kind of strange sounding but full range only with both ears.
There are some fullrange drivers that work well by themselves, most benefit from some help in one form or another.
You are probably referring to a mix of several different properties, the most influential being:
1. Beaming, increased driver/membrane size cause increased directionality at higher frequency.
2. Bigger and stronger membrane on a high xmax driver in general = too much mass to function well in higher frequencies.
3. Bigger coil size for larger drivers with higher xmax = higher inductance, IE the voice coil itself has higher electrical resistance on higher frequencies.
Some exceptions to these very simplified and general rules: There are big drivers that work well in higher frequencies (by the help of somewhat smaller voice coil, thin membrane to reduce weight, extra "wizzer" cones to help reduce beaming as well as extend the high frequency range), but there are very few small drivers that can pump out lots of bass without distorting.
Now it seems to me that you are asking if you can combine two different drivers with natural roll off in respectively the bass and the treble region, both augmenting and aiding where the other is "weaker".
I think the simplest form of a two way speaker like this would have to be using a 1st order filter.
I've made a speaker like this as a sort of "how little is enough?" concept. Using off the shelf pre-cut wood, using 1st order filters centered ca 700hz and smooth roll off drivers.
Sounds great, but if you are new at this I would suggest you follow a design or plan made by someone else rather than getting expensive parts and ending up with a project that you're not really happy with.
It doesn't have to be hard though, it helps if you can do stuff like woodwork, soldering, a bit of basic math. But you do not need to be an experienced professional to make perhaps a set of OB or closed box speakers with 1st order filters that can give a very satisfactory listening experience.
Great advice here. Stick with your original thinking - "I just want something simple (no crossovers etc)." Crossovers are a pain - and the parts comprising them are expensive - in many cases, on par with the drivers. If ability to play really loud without distortion isnt a top requirement, you'll get great results from a number of single driver systems developed over the years.
Personally, enjoyment of "really loud" is gone for me / my ears, so single driver FR at acoustic instrument sound levels works very nicely. There's many other immensely enjoyable sonic attributes besides the thrill of undistorted SPL -
Continue your research, pick a simple, easy to build one (as suggested) and enjoy the result - share your success here, for the next person having self-doubt about what to do. Good luck!
Personally, enjoyment of "really loud" is gone for me / my ears, so single driver FR at acoustic instrument sound levels works very nicely. There's many other immensely enjoyable sonic attributes besides the thrill of undistorted SPL -
Continue your research, pick a simple, easy to build one (as suggested) and enjoy the result - share your success here, for the next person having self-doubt about what to do. Good luck!
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Planet 10 Hi-Fi is the only dealer listed for Canada, but they only sell EnABLed drivers. Dealers | Markaudio
I presume import duties mitigate against ordering from the likes of Madisound? Madisound Speaker Components
I presume import duties mitigate against ordering from the likes of Madisound? Madisound Speaker Components
yatr98,
You mentioned "something simple" and "desktop listening" and a desire for good bass response. In my opinion the best way to obtain all three is to go with a sufficiently large wide range speaker in a bass reflex cabinet.
If you truly need a cabinet to place on a desktop and have good bass response I suggest the Markaudio Alpair 10P in the smallest practical cabinet. This speaker is very detailed and gives you a very wideband response. Quite "musical" as some say. There used to be some box plans on the Markaudio website, but they appear to have been removed. I feel confident that some of the good members on this forum can suggest an appropriate BR box. They are currently $110.00 USD at Madisound here in the USA.
If you can use a floor-standing speaker, then I would recommend the Tang Band W8-1808 in a BR box. This speaker will play more loudly than the A10P and will produce more bass due to its larger size. With some research you should be able to find a cabinet design for it that will fit your space. Currently $228.49 USD at Parts Express USA.
Please note that these boxes are not interchangeable. A BR box must be tailored to a specific speaker; thus the recommendation to look for an existing design. Also, though the W8-1808 has some advantage over the A10P, it produces a lot of treble energy on axis (pointed right at your ears). It can produce a harsh sound pointed directly at you, but if you aim it slightly to the side of your position it improves the sound quite a bit. You can also aim a stereo pair to cross their axes just in front of you (some people say this give improved imaging). The A10P sounds very good any way you aim it. Also, if you wish to keep it simple and avoid electrical components between the speakers and amplifier, you should place your speakers as close to a wall or other large barrier directly behind them as possible. If you place them free standing out in the room you may not have adequate bass response (research "Baffle Step Compensation").
I have personally listened to each of these speakers in bass reflex cabinets and can recommend either one, with the caution about aiming the W8-1808. I hope I have been of help.
You mentioned "something simple" and "desktop listening" and a desire for good bass response. In my opinion the best way to obtain all three is to go with a sufficiently large wide range speaker in a bass reflex cabinet.
If you truly need a cabinet to place on a desktop and have good bass response I suggest the Markaudio Alpair 10P in the smallest practical cabinet. This speaker is very detailed and gives you a very wideband response. Quite "musical" as some say. There used to be some box plans on the Markaudio website, but they appear to have been removed. I feel confident that some of the good members on this forum can suggest an appropriate BR box. They are currently $110.00 USD at Madisound here in the USA.
If you can use a floor-standing speaker, then I would recommend the Tang Band W8-1808 in a BR box. This speaker will play more loudly than the A10P and will produce more bass due to its larger size. With some research you should be able to find a cabinet design for it that will fit your space. Currently $228.49 USD at Parts Express USA.
Please note that these boxes are not interchangeable. A BR box must be tailored to a specific speaker; thus the recommendation to look for an existing design. Also, though the W8-1808 has some advantage over the A10P, it produces a lot of treble energy on axis (pointed right at your ears). It can produce a harsh sound pointed directly at you, but if you aim it slightly to the side of your position it improves the sound quite a bit. You can also aim a stereo pair to cross their axes just in front of you (some people say this give improved imaging). The A10P sounds very good any way you aim it. Also, if you wish to keep it simple and avoid electrical components between the speakers and amplifier, you should place your speakers as close to a wall or other large barrier directly behind them as possible. If you place them free standing out in the room you may not have adequate bass response (research "Baffle Step Compensation").
I have personally listened to each of these speakers in bass reflex cabinets and can recommend either one, with the caution about aiming the W8-1808. I hope I have been of help.
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I can recommend the following, which I have built and enjoy: Dayton Audio PS 180-8 (6.5-inch fullrange driver) in Denovo 0.56-cubic foot MDF enclosures with a 3-inch-long, 2-inch diameter port. If you don’t have clamps just glue the joints and screw together. Oddly, no acoustic stuffing sounds better to me. All from Parts Express.
This is a high-sensitivity (95-dB) driver with Kevlar-reinforced paper cone. I tend to like Kevlar cones and am using a 15-watt per channel amp, so needed an efficient driver. No crossover needed and a nice midrange. Good luck!
This is a high-sensitivity (95-dB) driver with Kevlar-reinforced paper cone. I tend to like Kevlar cones and am using a 15-watt per channel amp, so needed an efficient driver. No crossover needed and a nice midrange. Good luck!
I’m diving right in without reading any other posts…
Your statement about driver size is generally true, but there is a large amount of variance.
And in particualr, unless FE206 goes into a big horn it will not produce as much bass as the FE103 in something like Frugel-Horn oe MK-TL.nThe FE103 does smoke the FE206 in the mid/top. The FE206 will play much louder thou.
There is a beautiful simplicity to a single full-range driver. If one can’t live with the limitations that come allow with the assests then one has to take other approaches. Without losing (most of) what a FR driver brings to the party — not without some gain as well — one can explore WAWs. But usually at considerably greater cost.
I feel the sweet spot is 4-5”. Somethign like Mark Audio Alpair 7.3 in Frugel-Horn Mk 3 or Alpair 10.3/p in Frugel-Horn XL (or Pensil). if you want more bass. One gives up little in the mid/top, unless you really value detail/resolution/DDR and have the kit to support that, the smaller driver might be a better solution. It should be noted that it takes something like Vulcan to get FE206En to reach as low as A10x in FHXL.
Of course budget, room, support lit all play a role too.
dave
Of the current range only the FExx6 drivers require a horn if you want some bass — they also want a higher output impedance amplifier (ie designed for SETs or amplifiers with similar output impedance like the ACA.. FE103 is happy in a reflex or TL. Should also work in either the FH Mk3 or Lite (horns designed for driver snot usually associated with horns).
dave
I haven’t actually heard the 12 or 15” Fanes that people have been loving but it is a bit of an aquired taste, and if what Steve says about his, they work some places and sound crap in others — much more than one might usually think.
Probably not a good general range FR for a 1st time build.
dave
FE126En is the smallest (FE103 and FE83 are quite different). They are on the edge of what will work in FH3, it really helps to have corners, and you will want a highish output impedance amplifier. What do you have?
dave
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