Getting the best out of Allo.com's new Katana DAC...

Hi zacster, I had the Boss and considered it a big upgrade to my original HiFiBerry Pi DAC. Really did not know what I was missing. I thought 'what the hell', let's go for the Katana and see if I can get another level of sound. Oh yeah, the Katana + Isolator 1.2 is a big step up from the Boss. I think the ESS chip must have a lot to do with it, but anyway with the Isolator 1.2 in the stack I power this setup with only a couple of Allo wall warts. One to the Isolator and the other to the Controller. It is divine.
Katana Player With Isolator

NAS > Katana + Isolator 1.2 streamer > Pioneer Elite C-91 Pre-Amp > NAD M22-V2 Masters Series Amplifier > B&W 702-S2 speakers
 
I don't really like the iPower either. I used it with the Boss and went back to my battery after a few days. I was really surprised at how it killed the openness of the sound and made it all sound digital again. I meant to return it but had to travel and missed the return window. I should be more skeptical of online reviews.

I guess in a way that answers my own question, if the Boss can sound bad/different based on the PS, then the Katana will too.
Yes, the Katana will be also affected by Psu, no doubt about it.
 
Member
Joined 2003
Paid Member
On the SQ of a DAC being impacted by the power supply, IMHO that is THE basic foundation of good audio sonics. I have not found a situation where better power did not equal better sonics. That is not to diminish other factors, but in many cases better power is easier (though possibly expensive) upgrades.

My thoughts about the Katana and power supplies...

I believe Allo has done a great job developing a high-quality DIY DAC designed to fit on a Raspberry Pi. Of course, as a DIY DAC, the end-user needs to mate it with an RPi, appropriate power supplies for the RPi and the Katana, and put it in a case (if desired).

Most of those buying a Katana will want to use a limited number of fairly low cost supplies to power the RPi and Katana/Isolator stack... likely the minimum 2. Allo has also done a good job of making the Katana sound as good as possible in that configuration. AND that is pretty good.

BUT a lot of what distinguishes a $450 RPi / Katana / 2 low-cost power supplies DAC from a $1000 DAC from a $5,000 DAC from a $10,000 DAC are better and more sophisticated power supplies and a fancier case. That's not all... better and more input interfaces, better output stages, alternative filtering, or non-traditional non-DAC-chip setups also drive the price and quality up. We can't deal with these latter items without re-engineering the Katana. AND regarding the case, if you don't like the ones available from Allo and others that will fit, you're on your own. But of course, it IS a DIY DAC, right?

BUT we can buy and/or DIY power supplies. AND that's where a significant increase in sound quality is available.

In an earlier post in the main Katana thread, I'd suggested a recent set of related reviews posted on Computer Audiophile. Part of it was to refute the oft-repeated comment "Doesn't the DAC chip chosen determine a unit's SQ?". Quick tip... it doesn't! The review articles are:

Intro: My Quest for a New DAC - Introduction to the Series - Contributors - Audiophile Style

Mytek Brooklyn DAC: My Quest for a New DAC Part 1 - The Mytek Brooklyn DAC+ with Uptone JS-2 Power Supply - Contributors - Audiophile Style

Ayre QX-8 DAC: My Quest for a new DAC, Part 2 - Ayre QX-8 - Reviews - Audiophile Style

Denafrips Terminator DAC: My Quest for a New DAC, Part 3 - Denafrips Terminator - Reviews - Audiophile Style

iFi DSD Pro DAC: My Quest for a New DAC, Part 4 - iFi Pro iDSD (and friends) - Reviews - Audiophile Style

Chord Hugo M-Scaler & Hugo TT2: https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/revi...ord-electronics-hugo-m-scaler-hugo-tt-2-r781/

PS Audio Directstream DAC w/Snowmass: https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/ps-audio-directstream-dac-snowmass-full-review-r819/


One key point of interest in these reviews are the comparisons between the Ayre Codex ($1,800) and QX-8 ($5,500), and QX-5 ($10,000) in part 2. The Codex uses the previous generation ES9018K2M DAC chip, the QX-8 uses the same ES9038Q2M as the Katana. AND the QX-5 the ES9028PRO. BUT the biggest differences between those units (as outlined in the review) are more sophisticated and expensive power supplies as you go up in price and quality.

Another key point of interest is that several of the DACs (Mytek Brooklyn, iFi Pro iDSD) use external power supplies and the reviewer also tests them with higher quality supplies, finding significant SQ increases with more expensive and sophisticated supplies.

AND another key point is that the Ayre QX-8, using the EXACT same DAC chip as the Katana, beats the Mytek, base iFi Pro iDSD, and Schit Yggdrasil, roughly equals the Denafrips, and is not far behind the nearly $10,000 USD Ayre QX-5. THAT says a lot about how much EVERYTHING beyond the DAC chip contributes to the SQ of a DAC. AND about how good a DAC using the ES9038Q2M can be.

Can you make a Katana equal the SQ of the QX-8? I doubt it. Ayre has included a number of additional features in the QX-8 that aren't or can't easily be included on the Katana. BUT I suspect the best power supplies will take it a good bit of the way there!

I suggest you think of the Katana as a component in a DIY DAC system that can be anywhere from good to VERY GOOD depending on how you power it.

@altsouza, congrats on getting your Katana setup with a 4-supply (2x5V, +-15V) configuration. In my experience, there is a significant jump in sonics between the default 2-3 supply (2-3x5V) setups and adding good separate +-15V supplies. Allo took a lot of care to make the on-board +-15V as good as possible, which is largely why even in that configuration it beats a Boss. BUT I have never found a situation where replacing a DC-DC converter supply with a full linear one didn't yield good results.

As for tips, you should look at using as short and heavy as reasonable power wiring including organinzing your layout to assist in that. Also minimize connectors (although I always have at least one in each line for troubleshooting and upgrading ease). AND consider moving both of your DACs in that box away from the AC power run.

Greg in Mississippi

P.S. @Altsouza mentions Allo's new Shanti dual 5V supply. I've got 2 here and have been listening to 1 in rotation with the other top 3 supplies I used when originally listening to the Katana. I"m running my Katana in the best-sounding 5-supply configuration (5V->RPi & Isolator input, 5V->Isolator output & DAC board, 5V->microprocessor board, +-15V->opamp board). The Shanti hangs in with them and plays at their level even though it is significantly less expensive than the other 3 (roughly 1/6th to 1/8th as expensive).

Which is the best? That's the wrong question. Each has its own sonic strengths and weaknesses and which is the best would depend on one's preferences and specific system strengths and weaknesses. BUT the Shanti plays with my big boys quite well!

I hope Allo continues development of an equivalent +-15V supply for the Katana (which will likely be more expensive than a Shanti, for several reasons).
 
Member
Joined 2003
Paid Member
@altsouza,

You are very welcome. By going to a 4-supply setup with your Katana, you now have some seriously good sound... as good as a Katana is with a 2-supply setup, in my experience there is a very large jump when you go 4-supply with good +-15V supplies. Pity that most Katana users won't ever experience this level of goodness!

Allo's Revolution is a USB-input DAC and not at all compatible or interchangeable with the Katana. Will it be better? Allo learned a lot of new tricks in developing the Katana and has added a number of additional tricks since and will apply them liberally on the Revolution. BUT the Revolution will have less flexibility in providing it good power. AND it will be a significantly less expensive DAC, which tells you a bit about how Allo is positioning it.

AND of course, the quality of your USB source will matter too, just as RPi power and your operating conditions matter. The Revolution will be a natural mate to Allo's new USBBridge Signature... which should also work VERY well under a Katana. I have a couple of RPi 2B's that I've modified to replace the on-board DC-DC converters for the 3.3V and 1.8V and they are a significant jump in SQ over an unmodified RPi when used as an I2S source. I suspect the USBBridge Signature might be as large of a jump over my modified RPis.

Allo did answer the same question in the larger Shanti / Revolution thread:

I think that Katana with the right PSUs (and yes you need dual rails psu to extract the best) is unbeatable . Dont forget that Katana can be used on a USbridge Sig as well...

Revolution was made for people that don't have time or inclinations to "play".

One PSU asks for trade offs . Still the monolitic opamps are very good and consume 1/10 of what Katana analog stage does so one 5V is enough.

As for the dual rail..thats the crucial part .

We learned from Katana , the development never stopped. I have tried many ideas and found something that worked well (filter)

Same was applied to Revolution , giving some very clean rails. But its not enough (low noise) impedance is very important . Any time someone uses a LPS on Katana opamp stage they are adding "low noise" and low impedance then sound is enhanced.

So we are just fallowing on that path.

I really can't add anymore to what he said!

Greg in Mississippi
 
Member
Joined 2003
Paid Member
@altsouza,

I answered your questions in the larger Allo thread. Allo will correct if I got anything wrong. BUT to your questions, the USBBridge Signature is an RPi substitute and will work as such. IF you can use Roon on an RPi, you can do the same on the USBBridge Sig. AND a Katana (or any other RPi-connected card) will stack on top of the USBBridge Sig.

Greg in Mississippi
 
Member
Joined 2003
Paid Member
Not much happening here. BUT see my post #594 in this Allo thread:

Shanti Dual LPS 5V/3A , 5V/1.5A

I just replaced the stock RPi I had under my Katana setup with Allo's new USBBridge Signature. That was a significant step up, similar in magnitude to adding a good +-15V linear power supply for the Opamp board and shutting down the DC-DC stages.

AND I also tried Allo's new Shanti supply on the various 5V rails... RPi, DAC board, and Microprocessor board. The Shanti worked well in each position and was roughly equivalent to my previously top supplies. I'm now using a set of supplies that bests them all... a pair of 350F Ultracaps for each of the 5V rails, with an Uptone Audio LPS-1.2 Ultracap off-the-grid supply doing the float-charging on each of the 2 Katana/Isolator 5V rails and a Shanti float-charging the Ultracaps on the USBBridge Signature (it takes 2 LPS-1.2's paralleled through a dual section MPAudio 3||LT3045 board to power the RPi and that actually didn't sound as good as the Shanti there).

I listed there what I consider a minimum set of power supply setups and a few DIY mods required to get this level of performance from the Katana.... short version:

- Good +-15V supply for the Opamp board.

- 3 good 5V supplies with one on each of the DAC board, the Microprocessor board, and the USBBridge Signature.

- Replacing a stock RPi with a USBBridge Signature.

- DIY mods to direct-connect the power feeds to each board and also bypass the +-14V LDOs in the stock power feed to the Opamp board (these are detailed earlier in this thread).

If you decide to go down this path, you won't be disappointed!

Greg in Mississippi

P.S. Note that the Ultracap output buffer supplies are an 'EXPERT' power supply setup. Before connecting them to the respective 5V inputs, you have to carefully charge the Ultracaps to the target working voltage... I use an Ian Canada LT3042 regulator (which is current limited to about 250mA) inline with each. This takes about 1/2 hour!

On the DAC and Microprocesor board rails, I leave the LT3042 board in-line. BUT after charging the Ultracap pair for the USBBridge Signature, I pull the regulator board and replace it with a jumper to provide access to the full current capacity of the Shanti. DON"T connect a Shanti to an uncharged 350F Ultracap pair... the current draw will be wildly above what the Shanti can supply and I doubt it will survive the experience.

For more details on the Ultracap pair output buffers, see these 2 threads:

Develop ultra capacitor power supply and LiFePO4 battery power supply

and:

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pow...or-explore-plus-build-thread.html#post5586601

I use Ian's circuit, but build it point-to-point as his boards are no longer available.
 
Last edited:
Hi Greg,
Can you please emphasize details about USBridgeSig upgrade/installation?
Have you removed your Isolator?
What exact Voltage is used to feed USBridgeSig (need to know your setup too:USB Hard Drive, SSD or Network)? Example: I use 5.2V to feed my PRI when my HD (2,5’) is connected. And, what is current pick consumption of USBridgeSig?
Thank you,
Alex
 
I also read that review. It's not that bad.

Your link is broken though: Darko Katana Review

It makes sense to me that an isolator is not always a good option.
There's s simple logic.

All filters come at a cost. No filter is lossless! And that also applies to an isolator.

There'll always be a point where the filter associated losses outweigh
its potential benefits.

When looking at the Shanti scenario, you'll find pretty clean rails already
in place.
If you then have your gounding properly done (Shanti also offers a starground point) an isolator becomes nothing else then an additional load to the system.
And not to forget Katana on it's own cleans out a lot of stuff that's popping in already. A DAC that's not that well done might benefit from the isolator.
And if you don't run a Shanti or Sbooster the $40 might be a nice investment.


Bottom line I pretty much buy the review story. Because of that I won't consider to buy that isolator myself anymore.

What I miss - as usual - is any reference to the software setup (OS and DAC) that's being used during the review. Because that can still make quite a difference. And talking just about "Volumio" or similar won't say much. Ok.OK. Talking about Volumio says a lot to me at least.

****

And before buying the isolator you can do a lot to lower the RPI associated impact at no cost.

* You can turn off the entire USB stack on the RPI - if using onboard wifi
* You can turn off BT
* You can turn off HDMI and LED
* You can lower the CPU frequencies
* and you can do a lot more

I'm quite optimistic that an isolator would have even less impact.

Enjoy.
 

Too bad they didn't hear Katana at its best, with +-15v linear supplies augmented with some film caps, also with the 'measurement' opamp board.

Using Shanti still means using the DC-DC converters to get +-15v, and the so-called 'sound quality' opamp output stage board actually has the worse sound quality of the two options, IMHO.

Also, the claim that Katana blows away dacs under $1,000 is only true when properly powered, and that means the existing DC-DC converters are not in use.

Hence, it looks to me like Allo may be squandering its opportunities to get great reviews that Katana should be getting by being in too much of a hurry to get reviews with the power supply they have available now. Another power supply needs to come along at some point that includes the needed super clean +-15v. They should also only send the measurment opamp output stage board to reviewers. Otherwise they always seem to only bother to review one of them, the one with the 'sound quality' claim in the name. (Bad choice of names from a marketing perspective, IMHO.)

Sorry if that sounds rude or otherwise inappropriate. I just try to tell it like it is from the viewpoint here.
 
Last edited:
* You can turn off the entire USB stack on the RPI - if using onboard wifi
* You can turn off BT
* You can turn off HDMI and LED
* You can lower the CPU frequencies
* and you can do a lot more

I'm quite optimistic that an isolator would have even less impact.

Enjoy.

Soundcheck
Wondering if you could give some quick advice how to turn off the pi USB stack? I can figure out the other items on your list, or have already done them, but didn't know about the usb stack.

Also, to add to your isolator comment, I think isolators add skew. So if you are reclocking signals to eliminate skew, and then feed the signals through an isolator, you may not have a low skew signal anymore.

Randy
 
You'll find the related info on my blog.

As usual all tweaks can simply be applied on pCP. However.
You can easily port that logic to other OSes.

Keep in mind, if you really intend to turn off all that useless noisy USB stuff, you'd need to run onboard-Wifi of course. That one uses the mmc interface.
130MBit/s over air is more then sufficient. EMI/RFI effects are IMO irrelevant at 2.5/5gHz.
 
BTW.

People, who are running Ians 9038 dual-mono DAC, reported,
that running OSF-B (oversampling filter bybass) and TrueSync mode on a 9038Q2M really pushes the limits on that DAC - at no cost!

These features are not available on Katana - if I'm not mistaken.

Would be nice to see an alternative Katana firmware and a driver update one day.
Getting these features implemented should be a no-brainer for Allo. All future DACs would also benefit of course.
 
Katana runs in synchronous master mode (DPLL=0), one can call it true-sync but isn't that a term TP invented? Katana does not bypass the internal filter since that capability in the dac chip is intended to be used only if there is a custom external filter to replace the function of the internal filter. Running in OSF bypass without any filter increases distortion, although in some systems increased distortion can be mistaken for increased clarity. When that happens it is really a kind of 'false clarity' created by increased odd-order harmonics.

Also, it is known that RF can cause distortion in some linear circuits. The mechanism involves demodulation in semiconductor junctions inside the chip. For example, LME49720 is sensitive to 2GHz DECT phone base station signals which show up as many regularly spaced spurs in an FFT.
 
Last edited: