You're the authority on what's on or off the reservation now? Guess that comes with being a self-styled DAC guru.
Fine example of expectation bias
Where does expectation bias come in? This is a fine example.
1) you have changed 'preamp board' into 'output stage'.
2) you have changed 'S/N goes from 140 to 130 dB' into 'distortion is -130dB from what I read'. No, No, No. Distortion remains unmeasurable, even with the preamp board.
I am sure you were not aware of these misstatements when you made them, undoubtedly, you were thinking that your statements were correct. Therefore, I am not trying to discredit you in any way as a person. It is just the way the human mind works, and we all suffer from it. (I recall I was having a bout of it not too long ago in this thread when I jumped to conclusions as to the inclusion of coupling caps after a DAC chip, as you may remember. And this happened because I don't believe coupling caps do harm in AC circuits, and I wanted to prove it and had used the example of condensor microphones before and wanted something new. Preconceived notions, expectation bias, we need the reflection of others to see our own thinking in a more objective light. Hope this helps.)
You can hook up the Mola as is without preamp board to your own preamp, just like a DAC3, AFAIK. But any preamp will be worse. Even with the preamp board, the Mola Mola is light years ahead of the DAC3.
Where does expectation bias come in? This is a fine example.
1) you have changed 'preamp board' into 'output stage'.
2) you have changed 'S/N goes from 140 to 130 dB' into 'distortion is -130dB from what I read'. No, No, No. Distortion remains unmeasurable, even with the preamp board.
I am sure you were not aware of these misstatements when you made them, undoubtedly, you were thinking that your statements were correct. Therefore, I am not trying to discredit you in any way as a person. It is just the way the human mind works, and we all suffer from it. (I recall I was having a bout of it not too long ago in this thread when I jumped to conclusions as to the inclusion of coupling caps after a DAC chip, as you may remember. And this happened because I don't believe coupling caps do harm in AC circuits, and I wanted to prove it and had used the example of condensor microphones before and wanted something new. Preconceived notions, expectation bias, we need the reflection of others to see our own thinking in a more objective light. Hope this helps.)
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I appreciate your honesty, others might have stronger feelings here I can't control that.
Please see priming:
Priming (psychology) - Wikipedia
It's probably the most relevant effect that has been studied in great detail, although it is not classified as bias.
This links to:
"Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name. Please search for Priming (psychology in Wikipedia to check for alternative titles or spellings.
Log in or create an account to start the Priming (psychology article, alternatively use the Article Wizard, or add a request for it. Search for "Priming (psychology" in existing articles. Look for pages within Wikipedia that link to this title."
Whereas
Observer-expectancy effect - Wikipedia
"Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name. Please search for Priming (psychology in Wikipedia to check for alternative titles or spellings.
Log in or create an account to start the Priming (psychology article, alternatively use the Article Wizard, or add a request for it. Search for "Priming (psychology" in existing articles. Look for pages within Wikipedia that link to this title."
Whereas
Observer-expectancy effect - Wikipedia
And how do this Mola Mola thing sing ?
I ask this question because, strange isn't it, all those diverse dacs with < -110db of distortion (far beyond our listening threshold ?) do not sound exactly the same.
Really, who care if a DAC measure -140 in comparison once it is reproduced by a ... speaker ;-).
Hard to find any logic.
Okay. I haven't seen Bruno's write up. Maybe it is only SOTA dac in the world then?
Mark, if you want to be right at all costs, whatever what, please be assured, in all my wrongness, I will be always be righter than you, because I accept correction when I am made aware of my mistakes.
You are (mis)quoting from the very same article!!! This is rich.
SOTA is typically only one, conceivably there are equivalent SOTA's. Like ESS and AKM make equivalent almost-SOTA DAC's
You are (mis)quoting from the very same article!!! This is rich.
SOTA is typically only one, conceivably there are equivalent SOTA's. Like ESS and AKM make equivalent almost-SOTA DAC's
Perhaps this is intended consciously as irony? In truth, no-one can make you aware of anything - awareness is under your own jurisdiction, no-one else's. Put it Morpheus's way 'I can only show you the door, you have to walk through it'.
Agree on the distortion levels... but if these perceived differences aren't explained by the usual measurements, then what do you attribute it to?
There is a good chance it is the best measuring audio DAC available. The rest is for you to decide. This whole debate over the meaning of SOTA doesn't get me too excited given that (IMO) we entered overkill territory a long time ago. I would be surprised if anyone could tell the difference between a DAC 3 and a Mola Mola in a blind and level matched comparison.
I can think of a possible instantiation of such a test where differences might be audible. Though not with a single Mola Mola, it needs an active setup with digital crossover.
If I knew it, I would sell measuring devices ;-)
Probably in the time domain. Reason why, even if there is no change in ordinary measurements, P.S. can change the landscape.
I don't consider myself to be a dac guru. I never worked on audio stuff like people do here at all until about a year and a half ago. I decided to see if there was a cheap and easy way for people who could not afford a good dac to mod a cheap one and end up with something decent.
Turned out over time I made one good one, mostly by giving attention to basics. No AP analyzer owned by me. Audio design isn't what I did for a living, although I was an engineer by training and worked on some pretty interesting stuff. Doesn't matter though. After college I was also a sound man for seven years, before going back into science and real engineering. Learned how to listen with the best, at a professional level.
So, I get here, applied some common sense and told a story about trying this or that and it worked. It did work, but there is always more behind the scenes. I do run FFTs and look at distortion now and then. And, I do listen very, very carefully to DAC-3. You have no idea what's possible from doing that because it isn't taught in school. It is no accident my modded dac sounds good. There was a lot of hair pulling to think through a non-standard approach and make it work with only a scope, DVM, notch filter, and sound card. I don't write story-form or blog-style posts to show off how smart I am, I write them to make it sound like anyone can do it by applying a little common sense, because I want beginners not be so overwhelmed complexities that they won't undertake to start learning and doing. A lot of important details are only documented in the pictures I post. I can't explain everything in text, because you can't get people to read a technical book. You can get them to read stories.
Getting back to the dac guru issue, I never said I was one and I will plainly say that I am not. However, it appears that I now know a lot more about it than most around here who are willing to help beginners. At least I don't tell people they are wrong about everything and try make them feel stupid.
I'm sorry, guess I missed it. What mistake was that?
More accurately, "perceive something". Whether it can be actually heard or not will need to be confirmed by measurements and bias controlled listening test.
I was quoting Sterophile which called DAC-3 SOTA. Maybe they didn't read Bruno't article either. Why don't you complain to them instead of me?
Benchmark's DAC3 HGC offers state-of-the-art measured performance. All I can say is "Wow!"—John Atkinson
You mean the stress inducing procedure? Ho no, the horror!
Speaking of sounding good, just curious, what kind of performance do your speakers and their interaction with the room give?
The link you give says:
The observer-expectancy effect (also called the experimenter-expectancy effect, expectancy bias, observer effect, or experimenter effect) is a form of reactivity in which a researcher's cognitive bias causes them to subconsciously influence the participants of an experiment.
In that context, reactivity probably refers to psychological reactance, which is explained here: Reactance (psychology) - Wikipedia
I would agree that Expectation Bias could be considered to occur if an experimenter's reactivity causes them the subconsciously influence participants in an experiment (as described in your link).
At the moment I am not clear who you see in the role of experimenter, who are the participants, and how reactivity (reactivity to what, and reactivity manifested how?) plays a role as you see it occurring in the context of diyaudio?
My point is - how can you dismiss the claims of others as not worthy when you only have your own sighted listening experiences and theories to go by? You're not the first person here that seems to think they've discovered the keys to relating subjective impressions to objective phenomena. There have been lots of posters before you that think they've found what needs to be tweaked, and few of them seem to align.
Can I do a better job regarding the tone of my posts? Yes, I'd agree. What I don't like (and often see) is people misleading beginners into thinking that their opinions are fact without a disclaimer.
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Wow. A lot of assumptions baked into that. You were in debating club, maybe?
I do sighted listening, blind listening, blind testing of others, and measuring. too.
I don't completely dismiss the claims of others in most cases when there could be some plausible explanation. Those silly ground boxes I don't claim to find plausible. I do find it plausible that someone could change the sound of a dac by putting a film cap across the clock power pins. Its clearly not impossible.
However, I do doubt many things. Usually keep them to myself though. No good comes from being overly negative. People don't want to hear it.
By the way, I don't find people as not worthy. I find some ideas implausible.
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