Jakob: I was specifically referring to people like Ken Kessler who were writing columns urging people to move upmarket and place themselves amongst the aspirational. looking at the price increases in products that have been around for a while I think he succeeded!
Now as to how much, the killer is as ever speakers and I can see a number around the 10k mark that few would argue with as being pretty darned good. JBL M2s, ATC actives, kii3 etc. As you go down from there I'm not sure how far you can go before there is something 'obviously' wrong with them.
It's an interesting question. And one of course we have no hope of getting agreement on
@Bonsai: Only one at a time for me! Although the question possibly is how were there >1 women daft enough to marry me
Now as to how much, the killer is as ever speakers and I can see a number around the 10k mark that few would argue with as being pretty darned good. JBL M2s, ATC actives, kii3 etc. As you go down from there I'm not sure how far you can go before there is something 'obviously' wrong with them.
It's an interesting question. And one of course we have no hope of getting agreement on
@Bonsai: Only one at a time for me! Although the question possibly is how were there >1 women daft enough to marry me
You always have some FM and air has some non-linearity (very small at normal listening SPL's). I'm sure Beranek has the formula for an ideal piston in an infinite baffle. Without mass or stiffness would this not be close to the same as an electrostatic speaker acting only on the mass of the acoustic load of the air? They are known to have low distortion.
From online calculator wavelength of 100Hz=135.6 inches, 800Hz=16.95 inches.
Please teach what you are getting at ?.
Dan.
Speakers are the place where DIY can pay large dividends if you're not overly concerned with the aesthetics. Amplifiers likewise if you want to emulate the higher end, only because the prices are an obvious rip off and don't reflect the sound quality. For anything non high end it's difficult to build to the same quality for the price of ready made
I am having trouble understanding your issues.
First I would check the turntable motor to be sure it has functioning isolation mounts and is properly lubricated. Next remove any dust bunnies as they can get into moving parts and unbalance them causing noise. (Ignore all this if direct drive. But in that case try double stick tape on the turntable's feet.)
The low level thresholds should not change with headphones. As you are not quite older than dirt and still making breathing noises, I would expect you to be able to hear a 0 dBa signal at 3,000 hertz with 20 dBa "C" of pink noise.
I would not expect you to try a maximum level test as it is too easy to damage the headphones and perhaps more importantly your own hearing. However most headphones will fail before reaching levels above 130 ish dBa.
As your maximum comfort listening level is below 99 dBa "A" weight I would not expect you to be able to detect any noise down by 16 bits. With a more normal listening level of 70 ish dBa "A" weight I would think you could hear 12 bit limits but not 14 bit ones.
All bets are off if your test music is heavy metal!
If the voltage into the motor stays the same, you should be getting the same deflection. As the frequency increases you are increasing the actual work being done. So I would expect a rising frequency response of 6 dB per octave. For the example given the the 800 hertz tone would be 18 dB louder than the 100 hertz one. (18.06179974... dB if you care to do the math.)
Now Scott did raise other correct issues, but not ones that would have as much effect of IMD.
The IMD issue is that loudspeaker drivers are designed to have flat frequency response with flat voltage level drive. That is why mass among other concerns is important in real drivers. The result is that most transducers are filters! That has a strong effect on reducing THD and IMD from the drivers.
In a loudspeaker system consisting of multiple drivers each one is not just bandpass filtered as to the signal it is fed with, but not surprisingly mechanically filtered as to what energy it can project. Also as a system THD in the drive voltage may not be reduced acoustically as the drivers are designed to deliver flat frequency response from flat voltage sources.
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No doubt at all it is definatly a feedback problem
What hate on Sennheiser? I own top model sennheiser, too. If one is going to make a HPA it should handle everyone's HP Z.
-Richard
Thanks Ed, that's a nice summary of what goes on at the final (transducer) end.
I have today run some loopback testing using the M-Noise/downloads modified pink noise signal.
Standard metering says m-noise looks the same as standard pink noise, ears says that m-sound sounds very differently according to the signal chain.
Thank you Mr Meyer.
Dan.
Ok, yes, and this non linear 'admittance' (ie transductance capability and nature) determines higher order behaviours and stored energy return behaviours........and then add to that NFB amplifier reverse energy input caused (ringing) behaviors.....etc.
I have today run some loopback testing using the M-Noise/downloads modified pink noise signal.
Standard metering says m-noise looks the same as standard pink noise, ears says that m-sound sounds very differently according to the signal chain.
Thank you Mr Meyer.
Dan.
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"As you go down from there I'm not sure how far you can go before there is something 'obviously' wrong with them "
I heard a 12 grand pair of speakers (I will refrain from naming the brand - but everyone's been raving about them over the past few years) in December last year. I thought they were absolutely terrible. The guy who was demoing them told me 'they are still running in - they'll sound great after about 200 hours'. Clearly he had high hopes . . .
I had a pair of £180 Q Acoustics 320's (donated to one of the sons now). I can listen to orchestral music on them and think, yes, they are ok, but as soon as I put some pop or rock on, I can hear they are not right in the same way a better speaker is. But, for folks on a budget, they are good value for money and very nicely made.
I really like my B&W's 703's (big relaxed sound) and the KEF LS50's sing fantastically.
I've heard some very good speakers over the last few years - various high end Dali's, KEF Blades, Graham Audio (LS3 and LS5 licensed builds), big B&W's.
Speakers are very listener specific, but, other than the KEF LS50's (outliers in a good way IMV), I think the break point for speakers is about 2 or 3 grand - after that you pay a lot of money for relatively small increments in performance except for ones of course that are just plain disappointing.
I heard a 12 grand pair of speakers (I will refrain from naming the brand - but everyone's been raving about them over the past few years) in December last year. I thought they were absolutely terrible. The guy who was demoing them told me 'they are still running in - they'll sound great after about 200 hours'. Clearly he had high hopes . . .
I had a pair of £180 Q Acoustics 320's (donated to one of the sons now). I can listen to orchestral music on them and think, yes, they are ok, but as soon as I put some pop or rock on, I can hear they are not right in the same way a better speaker is. But, for folks on a budget, they are good value for money and very nicely made.
I really like my B&W's 703's (big relaxed sound) and the KEF LS50's sing fantastically.
I've heard some very good speakers over the last few years - various high end Dali's, KEF Blades, Graham Audio (LS3 and LS5 licensed builds), big B&W's.
Speakers are very listener specific, but, other than the KEF LS50's (outliers in a good way IMV), I think the break point for speakers is about 2 or 3 grand - after that you pay a lot of money for relatively small increments in performance except for ones of course that are just plain disappointing.
obviously i haven´t read enough from Kessler to get that.....
The increase surely fits the pattern, but having noticed the price increase for a lot of different stuff in very different market places i wouldn´t blame Kessler for that.
It seems to be typical for luxury segments that there is no apparent upper bound for prices anymore.
Consequently ridiculously priced gear is "flooding" the place.
No problem anymore to find something in the million (dollar, euro) or near range, be it turntables or loudspeakers.
Not to forget the big planars......
It's an interesting question. And one of course we have no hope of getting agreement on
At least there is one thing we can rely on.
But given the restrictions and the intersubject differences (already laid out at length in other threads) it´s not surprising that agreement "occasionally" seems to be difficult.
As said before, sharing some listening experiences usually helps a lot in this regard.
There is similarly a price point for where good audio amps start. Where do people here think that break point is??
-RNM
Meh, the 3886 and 3875 were never very impressive as simple amps. My 7297 makes them look bad when you actually listen. If you want a good 3886 get a Neurochrome.
I'll have a hunt for the article, I think most of his archive is online now.
He may have just been prescient rather than driving the change.
As an Apogee (hybrid) owner I did wonder about that, but felt that enough people would consider the compromises of them too much to live with to be in the list.
Agreed. Just hard getting people in one continent let alone the same place
Sharing subjective anecdotal experiences? It's good for one's own indulgence and that's about the limit of its helpfulness. Such experience of yours sure doesn't help my or anyone else's side of computer screen because their settings aren't same as yours.
LOLOL, I met my future wife going to live shows in college...Zappa. Jeff Beck. T-Heads, Pere Ubu, Devo, Brian Auger, etc... those were great times in live music as well...
Howie
Oh, just to break the monotony ---- how about something else to talk about?
When we measure a power amp or a CD player and say something isnt right about CD's or something isnt right about the amp sound and so we measure 20-20Khz and find the distortion is pretty low from both. So, obviously, you are imagining things because the THD is too low to hear. This is a daily comment. yet many insist the CD isnt as good as analog. Or that the PAmp doesnt sound like it is accurate. Sound familiar? And, so goes the argument regarding high GNFB.
How many people are using amplifiers right now which has a thd curve shaped like this one: THD rising up at the high end but cut off at 20Khz? if measured to higher frequency we would see gross levels of THD.
But a CD player has no music signal above 20KHz so there should be no audible distortion. But, what if there were a lot of HF signal level above 20KHz? Would not that affect the sound below 20KHz? Possibly. Well there is a lot of HF coming from CD players using upsampling etal. if the PAmp could amplify it with as low THD as at 1Khz all would be fine. But the graph shows it isnt doing so well above 20KHZ where THD is on a steep upward direction.
Here is typically what you get on output from CD player above 20KHz: One with max energy centered at about 167KHz. Other starting right above 20KHz. In both players the level is -70dBv. Add 20 for preamp gain and 20-30 more for power amp gain and output of Power Amp is around -20-30dBv.
First is filtered and second is unfiltered. In either case, significant in-band energy is present.
Now amps with wide, low distortion over a very wide BW, isnt harmed by such HF signals and the music sound isnt affected. CFA were first to be clean up in HF region but some VFA might be OK.... The ic opamp -797 is better than most in HF territory. And, it sounds better than others.... its above 20KHz distortion is lower.
The old criteria of wide open loop bandwidth and low distortion above 20KHz has long been touted as sounding better with CD's and even with mistracking LP's. This is why.
Only when you measure as a system and look at things outside the expected, will you will find your answer as to why some amps sound better than others. I have hinted at this for a long time. here is one such cause and why CFA or VFA which emulate the characteristics of wide low distortion BW always sound better.
Your welcome.
THx-RNMarsh
When we measure a power amp or a CD player and say something isnt right about CD's or something isnt right about the amp sound and so we measure 20-20Khz and find the distortion is pretty low from both. So, obviously, you are imagining things because the THD is too low to hear. This is a daily comment. yet many insist the CD isnt as good as analog. Or that the PAmp doesnt sound like it is accurate. Sound familiar? And, so goes the argument regarding high GNFB.
How many people are using amplifiers right now which has a thd curve shaped like this one: THD rising up at the high end but cut off at 20Khz? if measured to higher frequency we would see gross levels of THD.
But a CD player has no music signal above 20KHz so there should be no audible distortion. But, what if there were a lot of HF signal level above 20KHz? Would not that affect the sound below 20KHz? Possibly. Well there is a lot of HF coming from CD players using upsampling etal. if the PAmp could amplify it with as low THD as at 1Khz all would be fine. But the graph shows it isnt doing so well above 20KHZ where THD is on a steep upward direction.
Here is typically what you get on output from CD player above 20KHz: One with max energy centered at about 167KHz. Other starting right above 20KHz. In both players the level is -70dBv. Add 20 for preamp gain and 20-30 more for power amp gain and output of Power Amp is around -20-30dBv.
First is filtered and second is unfiltered. In either case, significant in-band energy is present.
Now amps with wide, low distortion over a very wide BW, isnt harmed by such HF signals and the music sound isnt affected. CFA were first to be clean up in HF region but some VFA might be OK.... The ic opamp -797 is better than most in HF territory. And, it sounds better than others.... its above 20KHz distortion is lower.
The old criteria of wide open loop bandwidth and low distortion above 20KHz has long been touted as sounding better with CD's and even with mistracking LP's. This is why.
Only when you measure as a system and look at things outside the expected, will you will find your answer as to why some amps sound better than others. I have hinted at this for a long time. here is one such cause and why CFA or VFA which emulate the characteristics of wide low distortion BW always sound better.
Your welcome.
THx-RNMarsh
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Thanks Bonsai (what BBC knows about speaker building anyway?
)https://web.archive.org/web/20130619234645/http://www.kefamerica.com/july12/LS50 White Paper.pdf
George
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