Hi All,
I'm new to the forum so hello everyone
I have decided on a project to produce a small-ish PA (for my own smallish events, dance music) with the aim of having hifi quality sound. The outline plan is to have a 3 way system in the order of about 2k rms:
Sub: Active 18s, most likely an electro voice ELX18SP (700 rms each).
Mids: Home made, probably using 2 * 250watt Eminence 8" drivers each channel. Eminence drivers come with cabinet design software, and being 8s I would think they should be excellent and producing a nice warm midrange
Tops: This I'm really not sure about. I rarely like the top end on most PA systems and for this part having near hifi quality is crucial. I absolutely love the sound and clarity of the ribbon tweeters in my studio monitors (Adam a7x) if I can replicate that on a louder level that would be perfect
Mids and tops driven by separate amps, active 3 way crossover distributing the source signal where appropriate.
I am thinking that to get a balanced sound I need to match the 700rms sub with about 250 rms of mid and 75rms of top end. Does this sound about right?
For the top end any recommendations on tweeters would be great. I have seen higher power ribbon tweeters for sale but will they be loud enough? Or are there any compression tweeters available which can provide the nice detail I am after. They don't have to be too loud or have great dispersion I can always add more and at angles to help with both.
For the mids my only concern is with them being only 8" drivers they might leave a bit of a hole in the mid bass after the subs have dropped off.
Any thoughts appreciated. I'm not doing this for cost purposes its mostly for fun to see if I really can get that hifi sound just louder. I do vaguely know of someone who has done similar but on a bigger scale (10k rig). Ive heard this rig and it sounds excellent so I know it can be achieved.
I'm new to the forum so hello everyone
I have decided on a project to produce a small-ish PA (for my own smallish events, dance music) with the aim of having hifi quality sound. The outline plan is to have a 3 way system in the order of about 2k rms:
Sub: Active 18s, most likely an electro voice ELX18SP (700 rms each).
Mids: Home made, probably using 2 * 250watt Eminence 8" drivers each channel. Eminence drivers come with cabinet design software, and being 8s I would think they should be excellent and producing a nice warm midrange
Tops: This I'm really not sure about. I rarely like the top end on most PA systems and for this part having near hifi quality is crucial. I absolutely love the sound and clarity of the ribbon tweeters in my studio monitors (Adam a7x) if I can replicate that on a louder level that would be perfect
Mids and tops driven by separate amps, active 3 way crossover distributing the source signal where appropriate.
I am thinking that to get a balanced sound I need to match the 700rms sub with about 250 rms of mid and 75rms of top end. Does this sound about right?
For the top end any recommendations on tweeters would be great. I have seen higher power ribbon tweeters for sale but will they be loud enough? Or are there any compression tweeters available which can provide the nice detail I am after. They don't have to be too loud or have great dispersion I can always add more and at angles to help with both.
For the mids my only concern is with them being only 8" drivers they might leave a bit of a hole in the mid bass after the subs have dropped off.
Any thoughts appreciated. I'm not doing this for cost purposes its mostly for fun to see if I really can get that hifi sound just louder. I do vaguely know of someone who has done similar but on a bigger scale (10k rig). Ive heard this rig and it sounds excellent so I know it can be achieved.
Nah, it means we haven't had time to reply yet.
My first thought is that you don't want those EV subs.
Take a look at the EV ELX118 (passive version), and check the frequency response chart. Then imagine how much EQ they're having to do in the powered version to get them sounding even half-decent. It's an okay-ish 18" in a ported box that's too small to get the most out of it. Might be okay for rock 'n' roll where the 70Hz peak gives you a bit of "punch", but for dance music etc where you might want some actual bass?
Getting a budget PA to sound "HiFi" is going to be difficult, but it's not impossible. You'll need a measurement mic/setup, though. I'd stay away from ribbon tweeters for PA use. They're very fragile, and that's not something you can afford to use when the red lights are flashing and the DJ wants more.
Lets start with things you do have. Have you bought anything yet, or is this completely from scratch?
Next question, what sort of PA system do you want to end up with? Reggae/dub style stack, or something more conventional?
Final question, what was the system that you heard that you liked?
Chris
My first thought is that you don't want those EV subs.
Take a look at the EV ELX118 (passive version), and check the frequency response chart. Then imagine how much EQ they're having to do in the powered version to get them sounding even half-decent. It's an okay-ish 18" in a ported box that's too small to get the most out of it. Might be okay for rock 'n' roll where the 70Hz peak gives you a bit of "punch", but for dance music etc where you might want some actual bass?
Getting a budget PA to sound "HiFi" is going to be difficult, but it's not impossible. You'll need a measurement mic/setup, though. I'd stay away from ribbon tweeters for PA use. They're very fragile, and that's not something you can afford to use when the red lights are flashing and the DJ wants more.
Lets start with things you do have. Have you bought anything yet, or is this completely from scratch?
Next question, what sort of PA system do you want to end up with? Reggae/dub style stack, or something more conventional?
Final question, what was the system that you heard that you liked?
Chris
Hi Chris,
Thanks for the response.
The EV were my first choice for starters partly due to low cost and weight (only 31kgs each). Happy to revise this as I hadnt looked too indepth and the response. Active I have chosen there is at least some redundancy if one overheats / packs up on the night. I wouldn't be adverse to using passive and an amp but then redundancy is gone.
I'm starting from scratch. I have next to nothing at the moment, a DEQ2496 which I picked up on ebay for about 60 quid that Ive used myself when playing through other systems to tweak the sound. I realise its not the best bit of kit but has been and could be useful for tuning.
The only other thing I have which could be used in the absence of anything else is a cambridge power amp that will do 350W into 4ohms per channel so potentially could drive the midrange or the tweeters. I dont want to be lugging this about too often though.
PA I guess more conventional but has to be portable, and a decent low end response as its mainly for dance (mainly deep house / techno and potentially drum and bass). A lot of the sub units I've seen are just too big and heavy for me to move about easily (I'm small so 40kgs is the limit for any item really).
The only mainstream systems I've ever heard that I thought sounded decent are void and funktion one. Even then, the midrange and top was not as clear as the system the guy I vaguely know made ... which consists of (I think)
either 2 or 4 * 21s
possibly 15s but definitely a couple of 12s
Quite a few 8s and 4s per channel
Compression drivers (I think) for the top end
I think all the drivers used are Eminence. Boxes all custom made. Active cross over feeding multiple crown macro techs driving it all.
Thanks for the response.
The EV were my first choice for starters partly due to low cost and weight (only 31kgs each). Happy to revise this as I hadnt looked too indepth and the response. Active I have chosen there is at least some redundancy if one overheats / packs up on the night. I wouldn't be adverse to using passive and an amp but then redundancy is gone.
I'm starting from scratch. I have next to nothing at the moment, a DEQ2496 which I picked up on ebay for about 60 quid that Ive used myself when playing through other systems to tweak the sound. I realise its not the best bit of kit but has been and could be useful for tuning.
The only other thing I have which could be used in the absence of anything else is a cambridge power amp that will do 350W into 4ohms per channel so potentially could drive the midrange or the tweeters. I dont want to be lugging this about too often though.
PA I guess more conventional but has to be portable, and a decent low end response as its mainly for dance (mainly deep house / techno and potentially drum and bass). A lot of the sub units I've seen are just too big and heavy for me to move about easily (I'm small so 40kgs is the limit for any item really).
The only mainstream systems I've ever heard that I thought sounded decent are void and funktion one. Even then, the midrange and top was not as clear as the system the guy I vaguely know made ... which consists of (I think)
either 2 or 4 * 21s
possibly 15s but definitely a couple of 12s
Quite a few 8s and 4s per channel
Compression drivers (I think) for the top end
I think all the drivers used are Eminence. Boxes all custom made. Active cross over feeding multiple crown macro techs driving it all.
Hey Damo,
With regards to active vs passive, with a passive rig, if an amp goes down and you have a spare, you can patch in the spare amp and keep running. For an active speaker, if any part goes down (speaker or amp), it's a dead cabinet and that's the end of it.
I find a lot of systems end up with an excessive number of crossovers and different driver sections. Getting a single crossover right can be tricky. When I see people with 5-way systems... Sure, it looks impressive. The sound leaves a lot to be desired, though.
Right now I'm running a 3-way system and it works well:
Grimshaw Audio Sound System
You'll have to work out which bits are marketing and which bits are science, but the facts are there.
The 15" subwoofers are pretty well-documented around here, although AFAIK, it's only me that's built them so far. I think they weigh less than 30kg. I can stack them four high on my own.
FWIW, I picked "fairly low and fairly small" - ie, flat to 40Hz and I can lift them with one hand. If I want it louder, I'll bring more subs.
Chris
With regards to active vs passive, with a passive rig, if an amp goes down and you have a spare, you can patch in the spare amp and keep running. For an active speaker, if any part goes down (speaker or amp), it's a dead cabinet and that's the end of it.
I find a lot of systems end up with an excessive number of crossovers and different driver sections. Getting a single crossover right can be tricky. When I see people with 5-way systems... Sure, it looks impressive. The sound leaves a lot to be desired, though.
Right now I'm running a 3-way system and it works well:
Grimshaw Audio Sound System
You'll have to work out which bits are marketing and which bits are science, but the facts are there.
The 15" subwoofers are pretty well-documented around here, although AFAIK, it's only me that's built them so far. I think they weigh less than 30kg. I can stack them four high on my own.
FWIW, I picked "fairly low and fairly small" - ie, flat to 40Hz and I can lift them with one hand. If I want it louder, I'll bring more subs.
Chris
3 way was what I intended. flat to 40hz would be perfect, and as you say more can be added later. 15s may solve the problem of the hole that might appear when 18s may start to roll off.
What to do with the midrange though 8s, 10s or 12s? My gut feeling is that many 8s would sound the best and would be happy enough to go right up to a tweeter where the crossover can be set a little higher.
What to do with the midrange though 8s, 10s or 12s? My gut feeling is that many 8s would sound the best and would be happy enough to go right up to a tweeter where the crossover can be set a little higher.
I have no experience in PA, but I am a fan of using "PA" speakers in a home setting, as well as a fan of the Danley Unity or Synergy line. In fact, my semi-DIY system consists of a trashed pair of used Yorkville Unity U15 (about USD $1000/ea. new), which I converted to active. If I had the money, I would spend for true Danley "tops" (the SH50, about $4000/ea.) but then I would lose the ability to tweak the crossover of my beat-up old Yorkvilles While Danley (and I guess, Yorkville) aim entirely at the "Pro" market, the fact is that some of these speakers are happily used in home "hi-fi" settings. Especially if your speakers can be black industrial looking things Of course there are very many options, but perhaps read up on Unity and Synergy and see if you like it...
While Danley (and I guess, Yorkville) aim entirely at the "Pro" market, the fact is that some of these speakers are happily used in home "hi-fi" settings. Especially if your speakers can be black industrial looking things Of course there are very many options, but perhaps read up on Unity and Synergy and see if you like it...Thanks Chris. I think you've answered my question regarding 8s possibly being too small for the lower mids. Expensive drivers you are using there which I guess is why it sounds good
Yorkville is a name that has come up in the past but I dont think we can get their stuff in the UK. Danley stuff looks hugely expensive. If Im honest both of those are probably a touch out of my price range
Yorkville is a name that has come up in the past but I dont think we can get their stuff in the UK. Danley stuff looks hugely expensive. If Im honest both of those are probably a touch out of my price range
Thanks Chris. I think you've answered my question regarding 8s possibly being too small for the lower mids. Expensive drivers you are using there which I guess is why it sounds good
The difference between the good PA drivers and the bad ones is that you can hit the good ones with serious power levels (each 10" gets about a kilowatt) and they'll keep sounding good.
A couple of 8"s per side would probably let you cross to a 1" compression driver, which makes life a bit easier - 1" drivers and horns come up for sale all the time. You can run 15"s up to 120Hz just fine, and then it's just a game of maximising what you're getting from the 8"s down to around 150Hz.
Have a think about budget etc. Wherever possible, I'd recommend using fewer better drivers than a huge pile of cheap ones.
FWIW, I do have a pair of the Fane 15" wide-range speakers here that I'd be willing to let go of for a sensible price. I was planning on using them in stage monitors, but found something better suited for what I wanted.
They're pretty efficient and you won't need to worry about a mid-high crossover. Put them in a smallish sealed box and add subwoofers. Nice simple rig there.
PM me if you're interested. I'll also be selling off some iNukes in the next month or so.
Chris
Regarding the subs, ive looked at the response curve of quite a few passive boxes and they all seem the same, i.e. the peak response seems somewhere around 70 up to 100hz depending on brand, but they all seem to drop off by a good 7db or so down to 40hz. This might seem low but ive heard quite a few dance tracks recently that use kick drums with tails or actual bass notes close to that. This might be something I have to live with and just work around it.
You can get there with EQ, but it really is better to have a subwoofer that gets down there without 10dB of boost.
Remember that 10dB = 10x power levels, so if your bass sweeps down you're suddenly applying 10x the power to the drivers, with all the usual consequences.
DIY subwoofers have a really good price to performance ratio, and it's something I'd encourage. Mid-high speakers are more tricky.
Chris
Remember that 10dB = 10x power levels, so if your bass sweeps down you're suddenly applying 10x the power to the drivers, with all the usual consequences.
DIY subwoofers have a really good price to performance ratio, and it's something I'd encourage. Mid-high speakers are more tricky.
Chris
Actually, this one looks the best of all I've seen so far, without going mega expensive: Turbosound Dublin TCX115B (+/-3dB: 35Hz - 125Hz). I dug out a response chart and it looks pretty flat between 45 and 100 hz
https://media.music-group.com/media...CX115B P0BJ1_Product Information Document.pdf
https://media.music-group.com/media...CX115B P0BJ1_Product Information Document.pdf
Not deliberately. I've found sites with various plans but I don't know what they sound like once constructed with suggested drivers. No response charts etc.
I'd rather buy something OK to start with and concentrate more on getting mid / top end right first.
There is quite a bit to get together upfront anyway. I was probably going to control it all with a DBX driverack (along with the DBX RTA mic for tuning). Looks like a solid bit of kit.
I'd rather buy something OK to start with and concentrate more on getting mid / top end right first.
There is quite a bit to get together upfront anyway. I was probably going to control it all with a DBX driverack (along with the DBX RTA mic for tuning). Looks like a solid bit of kit.
Is portability a big requirement? I'm using 8 of Pyle plpw15d. If you give each driver 100L of sealed box you will get a -3dB point of 40-50Hz, with the low rolloff rate of a sealed box. They are so cheap you can get a huge annount of displacement for very little money and in the future you can use the same boxes and upgrade the drivers for upto +6dB.
If you have loads of amplifier power you could also deliberately undersize the boxes and add more drivers to reduce the size of the boxes. This will require more power to go low and more eq.
If you have loads of amplifier power you could also deliberately undersize the boxes and add more drivers to reduce the size of the boxes. This will require more power to go low and more eq.
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