What constitutes proof?
If a huge majority of people from all over the planet say they hear something the same way as the others.... That should be good enough.
It may be proof of the existence of a common mental experience, but it doesn't prove exactly what stimuli might elicit the experience.
Legal proof and scientific proof are two very different things, and it turns out they need to be different.
I think it could well be, I also don't think I'm guilty of promoting any kind of religion including ABX blind testing
Sure, maybe not you but on many audio forums, including this one, there's a core of people with a religious zeal about blind tests who continually question the listening impressions of others so I did find it ironic that you should say, unintentionally, it seems "people who need to be told how to come to decisions." about what they hear
Maybe it´s that you missed the point in the usage of this control as the listeners do _not_ listen for a level difference, but for a difference in _sound_ .
They _don´t_ _identify_ the small level difference but they _notice_ a difference in _sound_ events.
And to identify differences or express preferences for/in sound events is exactly what experimenters do ask for in this kind of tests.
Just as a reminder, as stated quite often earlier what makes things a bit more complicated in perceptual audio evaluation is that the same impression perceptionwise is triggered (or more precisely can be triggered) by different technical reasons. A good example for this is the impression of "roughness" ; it gests even more complex in cases of multidimensional perceptual differences.
There aren´t so many ways to learn about the pitfalls of sensory testing, keeping up with the published material and do some experiments with other/different people will truly open up a new world. 🙂
Are you sure about the "same logic" argument?
Arguing is useless... I will be anyway assimilated by semantical arguments, circular logic, obscure cross referencing, scope creep, etc...
I’ve asked for an authoritative reference and was offered lip service. Let’s agree to disagree and happily live after. I still believe that positive controls not directly related to the hypothesis under test are a useless way to complicate and obscure the test results. Call me dense, I don’t mind.
Legal proof and scientific proof are two very different things, and it turns out they need to be different.
Absolute proof aka FACTS and TRUTH's always remain the same.
Gotcha, there's a limited supply of free-thinkers the world over...just look at the state of it 😡Sure, maybe not you but on many audio forums, including this one, there's a core of people with a religious zeal about blind tests who continually question the listening impressions of others so I did find it ironic that you should say, unintentionally, it seems "people who need to be told how to come to decisions." about what they hear
Absolute proof aka FACTS and TRUTH's always remain the same.
Not really, philosophers figured it all out all long time ago. There is deductive proof and inductive proof. Scientific proof is of the latter type. Only something like mathematical proof can be deductive and thus true with complete certainty.
My question was about your claimed participation of audio DBT. You are dodging my question. It's looking more and more like a false claim.I've given you the reasons for controls in DBTs & you have nothing to say about it - that's fine, move on!
Obviously, if the levels are matched, which is a requirement.Maybe it´s that you missed the point in the usage of this control as the listeners do _not_ listen for a level difference, but for a difference in _sound_ .
Regardless of being "small", if the sound difference is there in sufficient quantity, it will be audible. Sound events when discussing audio DBT? It's such a marketing lingo use by high end audio electronics sellers.They _don´t_ _identify_ the small level difference but they _notice_ a difference in _sound_ events.
What is the kind you are referring to?And to identify differences or express preferences for/in sound events is exactly what experimenters do ask for in this kind of tests.
So you are not talking about audio DBT. That's what I thought.Just as a reminder, as stated quite often earlier what makes things a bit more complicated in perceptual audio evaluation is that the same impression perceptionwise is triggered (or more precisely can be triggered) by different technical reasons. A good example for this is the impression of "roughness" ; it gests even more complex in cases of multidimensional perceptual differences.
There aren´t so many ways to learn about the pitfalls of sensory testing, keeping up with the published material and do some experiments with other/different people will truly open up a new world. 🙂
One word MUSHRAI’ve asked for an authoritative reference and was offered lip service. ...
My question was about your claimed participation of audio DBT. You are dodging my question. It's looking more and more like a false claim.
I'm not interested in your particular deflections & rabbit holes.
Is there a difference between facts and truths? Is it relevant to audio perception?Absolute proof aka FACTS and TRUTH's always remain the same.
Is there a difference between facts and truths? Is it relevant to audio perception?
No....Its relevant to everything.
Proofs only count in math and booze. 😉
Inductive/deductive is too simplistic to capture the process of science.
Facts and truth are philosophy not science.
It's about amount and quality of evidence for and against a theory/hypothesis.
"If a huge majority of people from all over the planet say they feel the same way as the others from a medication .... That should be good enough."
The plural of anecdote isn't evidence. Science doesn't work that way.
Inductive/deductive is too simplistic to capture the process of science.
Facts and truth are philosophy not science.
It's about amount and quality of evidence for and against a theory/hypothesis.
"If a huge majority of people from all over the planet say they feel the same way as the others from a medication .... That should be good enough."
The plural of anecdote isn't evidence. Science doesn't work that way.
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When someone tells you they have had a certain experience, that could be called a truth but is it a fact or is it both or neither?
It's about amount and quality of evidence for and against.
Probably
One word MUSHRA
That's not a reference, it's name dropping. Come up with exact quotes from an authoritative reference, examples of application with results, comparative studies. Anything else is lip service.
Let me guess, you are not interested in going into such level of details, talking through your hat is so much easier.
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- What kind of evidence do you consider as sufficient?