I use Eq (Fab Filter) and or DSP crossovers to fine tune the response of the system, so IMO the top end Beyma as perfect!
Its got energy and dynamics with detail and separation.... right hand piano and percussive highs sound great ... other tweeters just mush up into a ball of fizz / and splashy noise.
Thanks & that's exactly the feedback I was looking . New speaker and I hear the cymbals and Im all heartbroken . Especially if you are very familiar to the sound of real cymbals sound then you become extra sensitive to their reproduction
I find it interesting that the last picture of the Vaughn Plasma Signature with the replica Ionavac tweeter uses a short array of FF85wk — one of my favorite small fullranges — for mid duty.
dave
Given the subject title of thus thread, I thought I would share my favourite video on harmonic distortion when mixing music.
If you are undecided about low harmonic distortion as a goal vs making a speaker based on subjective impressions, you NEED to watch this!
YouTube
This changed my view on designing speakers with low distortion as the first priority.
Although I have a low distortion system (inc class A/B amplifier) I ADD distortion to my music playback through my computer. I have several distortion shapes that I toggle between for different music.
If you are undecided about low harmonic distortion as a goal vs making a speaker based on subjective impressions, you NEED to watch this!
YouTube
This changed my view on designing speakers with low distortion as the first priority.
Although I have a low distortion system (inc class A/B amplifier) I ADD distortion to my music playback through my computer. I have several distortion shapes that I toggle between for different music.
If you mean, above 10,000 years old, perhaps you are right. But abstractly speaking, you might not know some components of a 10kHz square wave range down to well lower and colour the sound accordingly.
Nothing easier to crudely test with REW. (Actually, all listening tests are very hard to do well.)
But I'd say near impossible to hear any difference in music if your system poops out above 10kHz whatever those charts of instrument ranges say. On the other hand, important to have lots of treble headroom for the peaks common in for example choral singing.
B.
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Therein lies the rub for me - the music has already been adulterated before I get it. As you say, why worry about the last mile on driver distortion when some dude has already messed around with the tune.
so low distortion in a loudspeaker design is irrelevant...
and if adding distortion is the new way of doing things doesn't that present an even greater problem with respect to reproduction?
and if adding distortion is the new way of doing things doesn't that present an even greater problem with respect to reproduction?
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what we want is high quality mixing, leave the rest to the listener. Then low distortion speakers are useful - we want control over the sound rather than giving it up to sloppy speakers or dude based mixing.
Thanks, but I've decided I want low distortion speakers and it has nothing to do with the mix
I see what your saying, but that's not what I took away from the experience myself. For me, firstly this showed me that harmonic distortion is audiable, and matters. But as Dr Geddes says - Some amount of distortion is preferable for most people!
Personally, I greatly prefered the version at the end of the video with added 2nd and 3rd harmonics. But having heard this, it is also clearly evident to me that:
1) Distortion of different orders sound different.
2) The difference in sound between the various added harmonic tones demonstrated does indeed sound like the differences I subjectively hear between speakers I have tested outdoors on axis that have the same or similar FR, but still sound different.
2) Distortion can be more pleasant at particular frequencies rather than the whole bandwidth
3) The subjectively most pleasant distortion for a given track would likely be:
i) specific to a given persons room (due to the power response) and speaker/amplifiers innate distortion profile.
ii) Specific to each persons own 'taste'
So..... I built low distortion speakers currently SEAS Excel magnesium 3 way,
soon to be a horn/TL AE TD10M/ JBL D2 transmisson line. Actively couple it to a bunch of Hypex amplifiers (low inductance distortion/IM distortion)
The best subjective speaker/amp combo I have heard is the Living Voice Olympian on a Kondo valve class A amplifier. Looking into the drivers and amplifier tells me I like a lot of second order distortion, particularly in the Mid range.
I played around with adding 2nd order mid band distortion and ....hey presto! Sounds lovely to me!
Sometimes I like different profiles of distortion for different genres. Its lots of fun playing around.
I see why you think thats what I mean. Watch the video. I hope it makes sense that I mean the opposite!
Yup! Then add salt and pepper to your taste!
Then we agree! Please please watch the video! recorded music is often very 'hollow' on low distortion speakers, just like the unmodified sound at the end of the video. Pro audio speakers often give me this same sound impression. Its the opposite of listening to a typical Vinyl and Valve setup. But the magic is that although the valve and altec 414/GPA lovers might not believe it, I think they just like 2nd order distortion which can just be added to taste these days.
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I did watch it, I've toyed with the idea, I tend to listen to older and mostly acoustic music, I've thought more about an expander for some modern compressed recordings
Less abstractly speaking a square wave consists all the odd harmonics.
A 10k square wave is made up of a 10k sine, 30k sine, 50k, 70 and so on.
If you can't hear 30k you won't be able to tell a 10k sine from a 10 square wave.
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Interesting, for me it was the other way around. In fact it was a bit of an eye opener because it ended up sounding like a typical bit of pop off a cheap radio, like they all sound these days and now I know why - I learned something new !
Me too. There's even a simple tube design in that reference book you can find somewhere on the net by Robin & Lipman (1947) before RIAA was the norm.
Clearly the problem with that video is that the general public and especially "audiophiles" can see it. You really don't want to name a knob "THD" or used the word "distortion" on the front panel.
(MAYBE you would, if it's in the context of a "Distortion Canceler").
Call it an "Aural Exciter" or a "harmonic restorer" but don't give away the Secrets of Modern Audio Production!
(MAYBE you would, if it's in the context of a "Distortion Canceler").
Call it an "Aural Exciter" or a "harmonic restorer" but don't give away the Secrets of Modern Audio Production!
Thinking out loud: Older recordings made on tube gear (or at least not digital) will usually have much more 2nd harmonic distortion recorded into the track.
Modern recordings have 2nd harmonics added to the track to make them sound 'warmer'.
If you had a track that has lots of 2nd harmonics, say 10db down, that is played back on a typical small home speaker with its own 3rd harmonic distortion at say 30db down, you would hear a 6th order harmonic distortion at -40db from the original unmodified tone.
6th order distortions are VERY unpleasant and audible to the ear. Would this be the reason for speaker distortion specifically mattering more than we otherwise think? Even worse when were dealing with 7th order or more as there was something special about 7th order distortion, I just can't remember what (I think it raises with level or something similar)
Modern recordings have 2nd harmonics added to the track to make them sound 'warmer'.
If you had a track that has lots of 2nd harmonics, say 10db down, that is played back on a typical small home speaker with its own 3rd harmonic distortion at say 30db down, you would hear a 6th order harmonic distortion at -40db from the original unmodified tone.
6th order distortions are VERY unpleasant and audible to the ear. Would this be the reason for speaker distortion specifically mattering more than we otherwise think? Even worse when were dealing with 7th order or more as there was something special about 7th order distortion, I just can't remember what (I think it raises with level or something similar)