I'm Josh, 16 and enjoy good music.
I installed all my car audio and built my subwoofer box, ported and tuned (27 hz, 4 vent piece box). After I installed my car auio I decided to move on to home audio.
Bought Denon 1804 and a pair of B&W 602s. I want to complete a home theater in my room, but definately don't want to spend much money. Soon I am going to build a center channel and a subwoofer (already have a design) and then would later do surround speakers. My room is no very big and I don't watch that many movies, but a Subwoofer is definately needed. I have ended up on this forum many times while finding out information and decided to become a member. Everyone here seems to be very knowledgable about audio.
Thanks,
Josh
I installed all my car audio and built my subwoofer box, ported and tuned (27 hz, 4 vent piece box). After I installed my car auio I decided to move on to home audio.
Bought Denon 1804 and a pair of B&W 602s. I want to complete a home theater in my room, but definately don't want to spend much money. Soon I am going to build a center channel and a subwoofer (already have a design) and then would later do surround speakers. My room is no very big and I don't watch that many movies, but a Subwoofer is definately needed. I have ended up on this forum many times while finding out information and decided to become a member. Everyone here seems to be very knowledgable about audio.
Thanks,
Josh
Good for you! Welcome to the forum. We like to see practical people. If you only have a small room, it's arguable that you don't need a centre channel. If you were to use a summing amplifier on each of the stereo channels, you could simply add the centre channel to them and create a virtual centre channel. Possibly your equipment has an option for doing this already. Genuine centre channel is only needed in a real cinema where the distance between the L and R loudspeakers is so great that they cannot create a solid centre image.
My imaging is pretty good, the stage is a little high but I cannot lower it, since my mom still controls what I can do to my room. The B&W speakers are pretty good speakers and actually got a deal on them, but after reading so many DIY website I think that I can build some very good speakers myself. For stereo listening obviously a center channal is not need, but over time, especially when I move out of my house I will build surrounds.
I'm interested in ribbon tweeters, but have never heard one. I posted in the loudspeaker section about ribbon tweeters, but the thread has not shown up.
I now spend about 3 hours everyday learning more and more about audio, but unfortunately my family nor many of my friends as interested in audio as I am. As a matter of fact today at school I scetched a few design ideas with no specific measurements due to not knowing enough about what driver I would use. Once I got home and read a little more I found out about sharp edges on enclosures and had to make a few adjustments to the design.
The center channel may not be very practical in my home audio system right now but would also be a good project to learn more about my skills in designing enclosures, building them, and learn about building passive crossovers.
Do you think that building a center channel will be a good learning experience for me? If not what other projects can I do?
Thanks,
Josh
I'm interested in ribbon tweeters, but have never heard one. I posted in the loudspeaker section about ribbon tweeters, but the thread has not shown up.
I now spend about 3 hours everyday learning more and more about audio, but unfortunately my family nor many of my friends as interested in audio as I am. As a matter of fact today at school I scetched a few design ideas with no specific measurements due to not knowing enough about what driver I would use. Once I got home and read a little more I found out about sharp edges on enclosures and had to make a few adjustments to the design.
The center channel may not be very practical in my home audio system right now but would also be a good project to learn more about my skills in designing enclosures, building them, and learn about building passive crossovers.
Do you think that building a center channel will be a good learning experience for me? If not what other projects can I do?
Thanks,
Josh
I looked to try to find your ribbon post but couldn't see it, and it wasn't awaiting moderation, so you might have to try again.
Ribbon tweeters are very splendid, but I'd have thought they were rather too expensive for the sort of money you're likely to have.
As a learning experience, a centre channel might be quite a good project. You are quite right to think that you should be able to build some very good loudspeakers yourself. Morst of us started out that way and we didn't have all the wonderful tools that are available today (computer modelling and FFT measurement). However, I would suggest that your efforts might be better rewarded by making a pair of loudspeakers, then you could relegate the B&Ws to surrounds.
I would also suggest that you seriously consider using an active rather than passive crossover. There are all sorts of IC power amplifiers that are available nowadays very cheaply, and if you can cope with the soldering, making a four channel amplifier wouldn't be too hard. The reason for this suggestion is that you could then experiment with the crossover in software, implement it in your computer's soundcard, and change it quickly if it doesn't sound good. When you get something that sounds reasonable, you could make it with op-amps etc before the amplifiers. This is making it very much an electronics project, though, and that might not be what you had in mind.
One thing you do want to do is to take advantage of the fact that you are still at school. I made a couple of pick-up arms while I was a school but had to wait fifteen years until I could afford a lathe of my own before I could make another. Raid the libraries and read the physics books as well as the Hi-Fi books. Definitely pay attention in maths classes!
(I used to be a teacher - it shows, doesn't it?)
Ribbon tweeters are very splendid, but I'd have thought they were rather too expensive for the sort of money you're likely to have.
As a learning experience, a centre channel might be quite a good project. You are quite right to think that you should be able to build some very good loudspeakers yourself. Morst of us started out that way and we didn't have all the wonderful tools that are available today (computer modelling and FFT measurement). However, I would suggest that your efforts might be better rewarded by making a pair of loudspeakers, then you could relegate the B&Ws to surrounds.
I would also suggest that you seriously consider using an active rather than passive crossover. There are all sorts of IC power amplifiers that are available nowadays very cheaply, and if you can cope with the soldering, making a four channel amplifier wouldn't be too hard. The reason for this suggestion is that you could then experiment with the crossover in software, implement it in your computer's soundcard, and change it quickly if it doesn't sound good. When you get something that sounds reasonable, you could make it with op-amps etc before the amplifiers. This is making it very much an electronics project, though, and that might not be what you had in mind.
One thing you do want to do is to take advantage of the fact that you are still at school. I made a couple of pick-up arms while I was a school but had to wait fifteen years until I could afford a lathe of my own before I could make another. Raid the libraries and read the physics books as well as the Hi-Fi books. Definitely pay attention in maths classes!
(I used to be a teacher - it shows, doesn't it?)
The ribbon tweeter thread went though, I hadn't checked it today.
I would probably cry if I found out that I spent my hard earner money on these B&W speakers and made better ones of half the cost.
I'm a pretty frugal person, I convinced the salesman at the home audio store to take $200 off the cost of the speakers and since I have been in car audio for a while now I know lots of good discount sites and was able to buy the 1804 for very cheap. One of the great things about the 1804 is the 2nd zone, so for the 2nd zone I can build the amp (no internal zone 2 amp) and build the speakers. I saw people's websites with construction of chip amps and they seem like a good cheap idea. One reason why I like the center channel idea is I dont have to purchase 2 of everything to have a pair (thats how frugal i am).
I know very little about active crossover for home audio (only know car audio stuff right now) but I can do some more research.
With electronics you make a purchase and you often find that a week later the item is cheaper, or they made a better item and it was the same price. I try to make purchases that this doesnt happen to. Unfortunately after weeks of research before making my purchase I never looked on this website. Since I cannot return any of the items I am going to use them either until they brake or until I can find someone to sell them to.
Yes the cost factor is a major issue, but I have seen a few inexpensive ribbon tweeters, the apex jr (but nor I hear their is no more) and I found a few other that i bookmarked.
Thanks,
Josh
I would probably cry if I found out that I spent my hard earner money on these B&W speakers and made better ones of half the cost.
I'm a pretty frugal person, I convinced the salesman at the home audio store to take $200 off the cost of the speakers and since I have been in car audio for a while now I know lots of good discount sites and was able to buy the 1804 for very cheap. One of the great things about the 1804 is the 2nd zone, so for the 2nd zone I can build the amp (no internal zone 2 amp) and build the speakers. I saw people's websites with construction of chip amps and they seem like a good cheap idea. One reason why I like the center channel idea is I dont have to purchase 2 of everything to have a pair (thats how frugal i am).
I know very little about active crossover for home audio (only know car audio stuff right now) but I can do some more research.
With electronics you make a purchase and you often find that a week later the item is cheaper, or they made a better item and it was the same price. I try to make purchases that this doesnt happen to. Unfortunately after weeks of research before making my purchase I never looked on this website. Since I cannot return any of the items I am going to use them either until they brake or until I can find someone to sell them to.
Yes the cost factor is a major issue, but I have seen a few inexpensive ribbon tweeters, the apex jr (but nor I hear their is no more) and I found a few other that i bookmarked.
Thanks,
Josh
I take all your points - I was glorious mono for years for the same reason.
If you don't feel you're quite ready to delve into component level electronics (rather than buying commercially made stuff), then making a loudspeaker would be a very good project. There's an awful lot of tosh talked, so rather than having to unlearn nonsense, start in the right place and dig out the physics. Audio is really applied physics. A good book for you to have a look at would be "High performance loudspeakers" 5th edition by Martin Colloms. You won't understand a lot of it, but don't worry, there's enough that you will understand to make it worthwhile. More importantly, it's packed with useful references to classic papers. Papers that you should definitely read include Tappan on loudspeaker inclosures, and Allison on room boundaries.
If you don't feel you're quite ready to delve into component level electronics (rather than buying commercially made stuff), then making a loudspeaker would be a very good project. There's an awful lot of tosh talked, so rather than having to unlearn nonsense, start in the right place and dig out the physics. Audio is really applied physics. A good book for you to have a look at would be "High performance loudspeakers" 5th edition by Martin Colloms. You won't understand a lot of it, but don't worry, there's enough that you will understand to make it worthwhile. More importantly, it's packed with useful references to classic papers. Papers that you should definitely read include Tappan on loudspeaker inclosures, and Allison on room boundaries.
Hear hear... Good advice, me thinks... Start with Audio Basics, and physics... Technology changes all the time, physics and math, rarely...
The 602's are well sorted speakers... Dunno what they cost now, but I think they are pretty much a benchmark ito soundquality versus price (musical taste excluded from equation) I Would have bought 601 S2's a few years ago, instead I built a set for a bit more cash and much more effort (5months), but the sound was definitely worth it... I think building a cheap speaker is perhaps more difficult, because the effort involved is perhaps a lot, but with better components the end-result is worth more for same effort...
Must hasten to add, that the satisfaction of using cheapie drivers and good design, that might get quite close to the 602's performance (with about 5 million pounds of research behind them...) is wonderful
I think focussing on the enclosure is a good thing, the design is not that difficult, and building is perhaps more effort than money and the result is very very notable, sound and looks.
Enjoy
The 602's are well sorted speakers... Dunno what they cost now, but I think they are pretty much a benchmark ito soundquality versus price (musical taste excluded from equation) I Would have bought 601 S2's a few years ago, instead I built a set for a bit more cash and much more effort (5months), but the sound was definitely worth it... I think building a cheap speaker is perhaps more difficult, because the effort involved is perhaps a lot, but with better components the end-result is worth more for same effort...
Must hasten to add, that the satisfaction of using cheapie drivers and good design, that might get quite close to the 602's performance (with about 5 million pounds of research behind them...) is wonderful
I think focussing on the enclosure is a good thing, the design is not that difficult, and building is perhaps more effort than money and the result is very very notable, sound and looks.
Enjoy
As a matter of fact we have been learning about craphing sin cos tan and all their inverse in math. Today we went over amplitude and wave length and I was talking to my speaker about sine waves for about 30 minutes during class. I love math and science.
I recently order the Loudspeaker Design Cookbook and am hoping that will help me understand this more, I have heard many good things about this book. I am going to be sure to do more research before I get started and actually might post the a drawing of the speaker plans to see how people like them and get suggestions for changes.
I'm almost positive now that I am going to build some speakers, probably not for another month, but it is definate.
The 602s are great speakers dont get me wrong, but it would hurt my feeling to have spend tones of money on these nice B&W speakers and then use them as surrounds.
I agree, the 602s are some of the cheapest B&W speakers but have good SQ, I have compared these speakers to many other that larger audio stores sell like Best Buy and Tweeter, Personally the polks that at like $800 or $900 really are not as good as my 602s that I got for more than half the price.
Recently throughout my reading I have found that My subwoofer enclosure in my car is not as good as I thought. I have no bracing. Dont get me wrong it is tuned well and pretty small, but everything I read is saying how important bracing is.
I think that the 602s could use a larger enclosure (I have the bookshelf, not the floorstand) and could use some good bracing.
Thanks,
Josh
I recently order the Loudspeaker Design Cookbook and am hoping that will help me understand this more, I have heard many good things about this book. I am going to be sure to do more research before I get started and actually might post the a drawing of the speaker plans to see how people like them and get suggestions for changes.
I'm almost positive now that I am going to build some speakers, probably not for another month, but it is definate.
The 602s are great speakers dont get me wrong, but it would hurt my feeling to have spend tones of money on these nice B&W speakers and then use them as surrounds.
I agree, the 602s are some of the cheapest B&W speakers but have good SQ, I have compared these speakers to many other that larger audio stores sell like Best Buy and Tweeter, Personally the polks that at like $800 or $900 really are not as good as my 602s that I got for more than half the price.
Recently throughout my reading I have found that My subwoofer enclosure in my car is not as good as I thought. I have no bracing. Dont get me wrong it is tuned well and pretty small, but everything I read is saying how important bracing is.
I think that the 602s could use a larger enclosure (I have the bookshelf, not the floorstand) and could use some good bracing.
Thanks,
Josh
The LDC is a good book, but it assumes you already know a reasonable amount about the subject. You probably need to read other stuff as well. Don't forget that you can go into a library and ask for books that are not on the shelves - they can obtain them via interlibrary loan (or at least, they can over here).
Don't go messing about with your 602. The designers will have put a lot of effort into getting the very best out of those particular dirvers. The difference with starting from scratch is that you can afford to use more expensive drivers because you will save money on the box. For a manufacturer, the box is so expensive that they have to shave every penny off driver cost to be able to afford the box...
Don't go messing about with your 602. The designers will have put a lot of effort into getting the very best out of those particular dirvers. The difference with starting from scratch is that you can afford to use more expensive drivers because you will save money on the box. For a manufacturer, the box is so expensive that they have to shave every penny off driver cost to be able to afford the box...
AudioXpress/Old Colony sells (or used to, I hope they still do!) a bound collection of relevant JAES papers. A lot of it is rugged going, but as you learn more and more, you'll get more and more from the papers. Worth their weight in gold.
The Colloms book is quite good, but I would precede it with the eminently readable primer "Music, Physics, and Engineering" by Harry Olson.
You're not afraid of simple math, which gives you a leg up.
The Colloms book is quite good, but I would precede it with the eminently readable primer "Music, Physics, and Engineering" by Harry Olson.
You're not afraid of simple math, which gives you a leg up.
You all recomended to build an amp. What amp is the best to start out with? A Gainclone? I've found quite a bit of information about the project especially from BrianGT and Peter Daniel, it seems pretty easy but the more I read the harder it seems, well really the volume knob is what seems hard. If not a gainclone what other amp?
Thanks,
Josh
Thanks,
Josh
I did a search on the forum for active crossovers, wasnt very helpful because almost every thread has the word active crossover in it.
Are their any good sites you can recomend?
Once I build an active crossover would you then suggest building speakers, and then later an amp?
The cheapest one I can find online is here, Obviously once again I wouldnt like to spend a lot of money
http://www.marchandelec.com/xm1.html
Are their better kits out there?
Thanks,
Josh
Are their any good sites you can recomend?
Once I build an active crossover would you then suggest building speakers, and then later an amp?
The cheapest one I can find online is here, Obviously once again I wouldnt like to spend a lot of money
http://www.marchandelec.com/xm1.html
Are their better kits out there?
Thanks,
Josh
You will need to build the loudspeaker before the active crossover.
What you're looking for in an active crossover is something involving operational amplifiers (aka op-amps). A common crossover is the Linkwitz-Riley, which is a pair of cascaded Butterworth filters. This description simply refers to the amplitude and phase characteristics of the crossover. For an active crossover, they are most likely to be implemented by a Sallen & Key topology. All of these names should be good key words. Rather than buying a ready-made PCB, I suggest that you buy an experimenter's breadboard from an electronics shop that allows you to plug components in and link them at will to create any circuit you like. Suitable op-amps are TL071 (single), TL072 (dual), and TL074 (quad). They are dead cheap. You will need small resistors and capacitors, but these shouldn't be too expensive. Some electronics shops sell bags of assorted components; they might be useful. You will also need a +15, -15V power supply for the op-amps.
The standard book that people recommend is "The Art of Electronics" by Horowitz & Hill. However, it's meant as a 1st and 2nd year university text book, so it might not be very good for you. "A Practical Introduction to Electronic Circuits" 3rd Ed. by Martin Hartley Jones would probably be better.
Making a power amplifier can range from putting a few components and a box around a power IC using the manufacturer's application notes to winding your own transformers and designing an amplifier from scratch.
What you're looking for in an active crossover is something involving operational amplifiers (aka op-amps). A common crossover is the Linkwitz-Riley, which is a pair of cascaded Butterworth filters. This description simply refers to the amplitude and phase characteristics of the crossover. For an active crossover, they are most likely to be implemented by a Sallen & Key topology. All of these names should be good key words. Rather than buying a ready-made PCB, I suggest that you buy an experimenter's breadboard from an electronics shop that allows you to plug components in and link them at will to create any circuit you like. Suitable op-amps are TL071 (single), TL072 (dual), and TL074 (quad). They are dead cheap. You will need small resistors and capacitors, but these shouldn't be too expensive. Some electronics shops sell bags of assorted components; they might be useful. You will also need a +15, -15V power supply for the op-amps.
The standard book that people recommend is "The Art of Electronics" by Horowitz & Hill. However, it's meant as a 1st and 2nd year university text book, so it might not be very good for you. "A Practical Introduction to Electronic Circuits" 3rd Ed. by Martin Hartley Jones would probably be better.
Making a power amplifier can range from putting a few components and a box around a power IC using the manufacturer's application notes to winding your own transformers and designing an amplifier from scratch.
I think I'm going to wait a while before I get any more books, especialy those that are more than $75. Does the LDC have any info about building active crossovers? Aren't more active crossovers through rca?
What is the best way to add them into a system?
I've got 1 more question regarding my reciever but I need to do a little research before I ask and feel really dumb.
Thanks,
Josh
What is the best way to add them into a system?
I've got 1 more question regarding my reciever but I need to do a little research before I ask and feel really dumb.
Thanks,
Josh
sorry about the last post, I didnt read a few things.
If I were to go active would I need to build 2 amps?
I would have (L and R) into the active xo, then (L and R) low/mid and a (L and R) high correct?
Sorry about all these questions, the thread name describes me well.
I'm gonna work on finding a good electronic shop near me to go to, I only have readioshack, not only do they not sell resistors, caps, or circuit boards (i dont believe) many of their employees can answer many of my questions in the first place.
Sorry but I don't quite understand opamps. I have been unable to find a good definition. Are they active crossovers that are also amps? I'm sorry, but I don't think I can navigate through the audio internet world very well yet.
Thanks,
Josh
If I were to go active would I need to build 2 amps?
I would have (L and R) into the active xo, then (L and R) low/mid and a (L and R) high correct?
Sorry about all these questions, the thread name describes me well.
I'm gonna work on finding a good electronic shop near me to go to, I only have readioshack, not only do they not sell resistors, caps, or circuit boards (i dont believe) many of their employees can answer many of my questions in the first place.
Sorry but I don't quite understand opamps. I have been unable to find a good definition. Are they active crossovers that are also amps? I'm sorry, but I don't think I can navigate through the audio internet world very well yet.
Thanks,
Josh
edjosh23 said:
Opamps? There is an introduction to opamps here: http://sound.westhost.com/dwopa.htm by Rod Elliott. He even states ohm's law, just in case you forgot
There is a wealth of information on the articles on his site, not everyone may agree with his opinions on SE valve amplifiers, C37 lacquer and the like... but in general the articles are good. And they will keep you busy for a while http://sound.westhost.com/articles.htm
A practical example of an active crossover with opamps can be found here: http://sound.westhost.com/project09.htm
Wow, I was looking way too far into it. Opamps are chip amps correct? I have had my eyes on the gainclone for a while now. I would rather not purchase a breadboard and design a curcuit board myself, not only because I am afraid I would mess it up and loose money, but also because this would be one of my first projects and supposedly PCB last longer.
I have been trying to understand the articles at http://sound.westhost.com but some of it is over my head.
EC8010, I think what I might do is build a center channel, and build the passive crossover. Once I know that I can atleast do some simple soddering and speaker building I'll build a set of loudspeakers. I'll make active crossovers. And then Build a gainclone. This is would be done over a year or so.
Or I was thinking trying the gainclone after the center channel.
Where are good places to purchase PCB for Gainclone amps?
Thanks,
Josh
I have been trying to understand the articles at http://sound.westhost.com but some of it is over my head.
EC8010, I think what I might do is build a center channel, and build the passive crossover. Once I know that I can atleast do some simple soddering and speaker building I'll build a set of loudspeakers. I'll make active crossovers. And then Build a gainclone. This is would be done over a year or so.
Or I was thinking trying the gainclone after the center channel.
Where are good places to purchase PCB for Gainclone amps?
Thanks,
Josh
I am a newbie as well to the DIY audio world. Not that my advice really matters too much, but find someone to learn from such as a webpage, (I personally spent some time at timn8er.com zillaspeak.com and zaphaudio I think is a good one as well.) I know what you mean as well with not having any friends or family who shares your interest in DIY audio.
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