Hi all
I am a cabbie with fantasies of playing bass. For home practice I already have picked up a $50 Gumtree find but I spend quite a bit of time on taxi ranks and I would love to be able to practice while waiting between fares
I am left handed so means neck of the bass sticks out of the window even on the shorter scale models by quite a bit. So I am looking to start a DIY project to build a practice instrument that I can hook up to the cars pretty decent sound system
Before I go any further though, I would like some help with getting up to spec with what this forums accepted etiquette tings are. I am absolutely trying to soak up all I can read through web searches but working the night shift means not being able to visit shops and such much. Does this forum frown upon blatant questions about where can I find information or asking for advice on what brands and things I should look for?
I would like to ask for advice and opinions on very short necks for bass. Does lowest obtainable frequencies depend on string length? The taxi's sound system has a nice mid and low bass response which rolls off around 50hz. A side project will be making a preamp stage too, hopefully fitted into the instrument body for direct hookup to any line level input such as the taxi's head unit
Thanks for taking the time to read
I am a cabbie with fantasies of playing bass. For home practice I already have picked up a $50 Gumtree find but I spend quite a bit of time on taxi ranks and I would love to be able to practice while waiting between fares
I am left handed so means neck of the bass sticks out of the window even on the shorter scale models by quite a bit. So I am looking to start a DIY project to build a practice instrument that I can hook up to the cars pretty decent sound system
Before I go any further though, I would like some help with getting up to spec with what this forums accepted etiquette tings are. I am absolutely trying to soak up all I can read through web searches but working the night shift means not being able to visit shops and such much. Does this forum frown upon blatant questions about where can I find information or asking for advice on what brands and things I should look for?
I would like to ask for advice and opinions on very short necks for bass. Does lowest obtainable frequencies depend on string length? The taxi's sound system has a nice mid and low bass response which rolls off around 50hz. A side project will be making a preamp stage too, hopefully fitted into the instrument body for direct hookup to any line level input such as the taxi's head unit
Thanks for taking the time to read
Re:'Does lowest obtainable frequencies depend on string length?" - & string diameter,
however tone depends on the amount of tension in the string, which is why the 34" Fender scale length has remained popular... I think your best bet is to buy a Ukulele Bass, - small, portable, & no need to plug in Gear Review Roundup: Meet 5 Bold Bass Ukes – Ukulele (don't spend a fortune on it though).
however tone depends on the amount of tension in the string, which is why the 34" Fender scale length has remained popular... I think your best bet is to buy a Ukulele Bass, - small, portable, & no need to plug in Gear Review Roundup: Meet 5 Bold Bass Ukes – Ukulele (don't spend a fortune on it though).
50Hz is plenty low. The mass market bass cabs typically roll off higher than that.
If you want to DIY the bass and are saying even a 30" short scale bass sticks out the window, then I would recommend converting a standard 25.5" guitar. Much cheaper than buying or building a u bass since all the parts are commodities. Lots of examples if you google it.
If you want to DIY the bass and are saying even a 30" short scale bass sticks out the window, then I would recommend converting a standard 25.5" guitar. Much cheaper than buying or building a u bass since all the parts are commodities. Lots of examples if you google it.
Best solution is moving to a "normal" Country 😉 he he.
That said, problem with short scale basses is lack of definition compared to longer neck ones, but since you will be playing alone, no big deal.
50Hz limit is lower than most commercial Bass cabinets , so don´t worry.
You might have to make a small preamp in a tuna can or similar or inside your Bass if you have some free space.Don´t worry about routing battery access covers and such (if you can, fine, do it), a Bass preamp can have such a low current need that batteries can last a year or more, if needed, so no big deal opening pot cavity or removing pickguard once a year to change battery, and that ensures you can definitely drive any Aux/Line input in your sound system.
Or as said before, build it in an external, pedal type case.
I have built custom Bass amps for Ambulance drivers, who needed to fit them in the wide and tall but *shallow* space (think 10/15cm at most) behind the unmodded original Ambulance seat.
Thanks guys, that's quite some food for thot. I have been reading still. Looks like I don't need to worry about bass string length, from one article on sweetwater fuller low bass with shorter scale so for reggae it sounds like the right direction
I have built quite a few PA systems, subs and hi-gear from electronic kits and self designed enclosures as well as furniture and boats both timber and FRP. If there is a category here for other stuff I'll post some pics
I'll look up the ukulele bass and 25" modded guitar as well as what circuitry and hardware will I need if go building as I do like the idea even for a later time when funds are better. At the moment I am fascinated with cutting out a paddle shape from plank and stewing on some hardware just for the hell of it 🙂
I have built quite a few PA systems, subs and hi-gear from electronic kits and self designed enclosures as well as furniture and boats both timber and FRP. If there is a category here for other stuff I'll post some pics
I'll look up the ukulele bass and 25" modded guitar as well as what circuitry and hardware will I need if go building as I do like the idea even for a later time when funds are better. At the moment I am fascinated with cutting out a paddle shape from plank and stewing on some hardware just for the hell of it 🙂
As has been hinted, there "must be reasons" why bass players and pianists run bass strings as long as they are, why people play more for a 17-foot Grand than a 4-foot spinet piano. Even with electric amplification, e-bass is bigger than e-guitar.
Look at the basic job. The string takes a very short impulse from pluck or hit, and gives a maintained (decaying) vibration for a musically useful period of time.
As you must see, we can set pitch of a taut string with length (L), tension (T), or mass (M), actually all three.
The energy stored for decaying oscillation must be something like L*T*M.
If your axe is too short, you can run lower T or higher M. Guitar already uses mass-loaded strings on the lower notes. You can tune it down an octave by reducing tension. But an already short string, working at low tension, has much less stored energy. You can add mass, and tension to keep pitch. But how much mass can you add to a string? I believe most ways to add mass also add internal friction, reducing decay period.
My guess (based on slight background) is that a "short" string will decay too fast.
There is a school of thought that the violin is well-proportioned. Working from that idea, builders have scaled-up the other instruments "no-compromise". The cello will not fit between your knees. The bass has to be played on a ladder. They claim they play better. They have got no traction in orchestras. I suspect your short-scale bass will also not gain popularity. That *with electronics* you can do some compromise (hence Fender bass instead of stand-up bass) but the well-known proportions are "best" for general playing. (Ukulele bass gives some hope.)
But WTH. It would be real cheap to pick up a beater geetar with missing tuning pegs (or your paddle-plank), load a few of the fattest guitar strings, and hear how it resonates, naturally and with a bass-boost amplifier (good bass amp with B knob turned high). There will be problems because the low tension leads to very large string excursions and adjacent strings will hit. I think your initial experiment can be with 3 strings, every other notch. Will it play booom buuum or just tink-tunk?
The guitar's pickups will work fine for bass; maybe a bit shrill. The frets will be "about" the right places for trial. I suspect over-fat strings may go sharp on higher frets faster than "right" strings, so a perfect instrument wants a custom fretting.
Ah: inharmonic harmonics! String overtones are sharp due to end effects, and a too-short string will have annoying overtone pitches. This is a real problem in piano and it was many decades of refinement (and also listener acceptance) before the Steinways et al became accepted over the earlier lighter/longer string instruments. In a band, you could high-cut much of this out. Playing alone... well, that's why you want to hack 3 strings on a $20 beater before you break out the heavy wood-working machinery.
Look at the basic job. The string takes a very short impulse from pluck or hit, and gives a maintained (decaying) vibration for a musically useful period of time.
As you must see, we can set pitch of a taut string with length (L), tension (T), or mass (M), actually all three.
The energy stored for decaying oscillation must be something like L*T*M.
If your axe is too short, you can run lower T or higher M. Guitar already uses mass-loaded strings on the lower notes. You can tune it down an octave by reducing tension. But an already short string, working at low tension, has much less stored energy. You can add mass, and tension to keep pitch. But how much mass can you add to a string? I believe most ways to add mass also add internal friction, reducing decay period.
My guess (based on slight background) is that a "short" string will decay too fast.
There is a school of thought that the violin is well-proportioned. Working from that idea, builders have scaled-up the other instruments "no-compromise". The cello will not fit between your knees. The bass has to be played on a ladder. They claim they play better. They have got no traction in orchestras. I suspect your short-scale bass will also not gain popularity. That *with electronics* you can do some compromise (hence Fender bass instead of stand-up bass) but the well-known proportions are "best" for general playing. (Ukulele bass gives some hope.)
But WTH. It would be real cheap to pick up a beater geetar with missing tuning pegs (or your paddle-plank), load a few of the fattest guitar strings, and hear how it resonates, naturally and with a bass-boost amplifier (good bass amp with B knob turned high). There will be problems because the low tension leads to very large string excursions and adjacent strings will hit. I think your initial experiment can be with 3 strings, every other notch. Will it play booom buuum or just tink-tunk?
The guitar's pickups will work fine for bass; maybe a bit shrill. The frets will be "about" the right places for trial. I suspect over-fat strings may go sharp on higher frets faster than "right" strings, so a perfect instrument wants a custom fretting.
Ah: inharmonic harmonics! String overtones are sharp due to end effects, and a too-short string will have annoying overtone pitches. This is a real problem in piano and it was many decades of refinement (and also listener acceptance) before the Steinways et al became accepted over the earlier lighter/longer string instruments. In a band, you could high-cut much of this out. Playing alone... well, that's why you want to hack 3 strings on a $20 beater before you break out the heavy wood-working machinery.
Paul Tutmarc seems to have been the one to come up with all the major ingredients of the electric bass: 34" scale, horizontal playing position, frets, and a magnetic pickup:
Paul Tutmarc, Inventor of the First Electric Guitar
More on Tutmarc:
Tutmarc, Paul (1896-1972), and his Audiovox Electric Guitars - HistoryLink.org
While Tutmarc set the modern standard (34" scale length), there are both shorter and longer scale basses available, Paul McCartney famously having used the short-scale Hofner "violin bass" with the Beatles.
If you consider strings vibrating through an amplitude "x", energy must be of the form ~ k*x^2.
The "k" in that equation is related to string tension. Ergo, if your fingers (or pick) displaces the strings through, say, 5 mm when picked, the tighter the string tension, the more energy is initially stored in the vibrating string.
That stored energy is then dissipated in various ways; some is lost to the viscosity of the air flowing around the string, in the same way energy is lost if you stir honey. Some is lost in the material of the strings (plastic strings on uke-basses have high mechanical losses, i.e., absorb relatively larger amounts of energy compared to steel strings).
Still more string energy is lost to vibrating the body of the instrument (not much if it's a heavy solid body). Some is lost to launching actual sound into the air (if it's an acoustic instrument).
Upright basses have a rather short "thunk", because so much energy is taken from the strings in the effort to make audible amounts of sound. The body is huge because the wavelength of a 40 Hz tone (low E on an upright bass in standard tuning) is over eight metres. 😱
The uke-basses I've heard all use rubbery plastic strings with low tension and high mechanical losses. They too tend to produce a relatively short "thunk", which seems to be why you read so many comments about them sounding a bit like upright basses.
Agreed, this is also what I've seen in practice. Shorter strings equal lower tension for the same mass and tuning frequency; lower tension equals less stored energy for the same vibration amplitude. (Because of the smaller value of "k" in that 1/2*k*x^2 equation.)
Tutmark was selling his basses in Seattle, and advertising them in local publications, for many years before Leonidas sold his first electric bass. Leo worked with musicians who traveled up and down the West Coast of the USA, including Seattle. And when Leo eventually sold his own bass, it had all the essential ingredients of Tutmark's design, even the exact same scale length. But it had better pickups, and a more novel body shape with cutaways.
Mark Ferrie can be seen playing one to great effect in some episodes of Rockwiz (Australian TV show, some episodes on You Tube).
I have marginal skills as a bassist (my instrument is guitar), but I've fiddled around with short-scale violin-bass copies, 34" scale Fender and Yamaha basses, and one 35" scale Yamaha (RBX 774). In my limited experience, sure enough, the shorter the scale length, the shorter the sustain, and the muddier and less precise the emitted pitch.
-Gnobuddy
Hi fellas, thanks again for making the effort to share
PRR
I did recognise the implications of string length, which is why I questioned it
Guys I think I should put this back in perspective. I am not entertaining in the taxi, just hoping to practice in between fares while waiting on ranks. I have a full size instrument at home which I am not getting a chance to practice at home. I stole my lil gyals ukulele, a $20 Kmart special and put two different sized whipper snipper cord on it 🙂 sounds suprisingly ok! It just fits but the neck feels a bit short
I have to thank PeteMcK from western Sydney. Your tip on the U-Bass opened up a world of possibilities for me. I like the sound. Even the cheapest is a bit out of price range for me at the moment. When I listen to the that pattern, felt like every sound struck just blasting away stress and the changing patterns. Feels like if I can sit in the cab and play like this randomly will be like meditation
I am about to cut out the 'paddle plank' and run two whipper snipper cords on it! m not kidding 🙂
PRR
I did recognise the implications of string length, which is why I questioned it
Guys I think I should put this back in perspective. I am not entertaining in the taxi, just hoping to practice in between fares while waiting on ranks. I have a full size instrument at home which I am not getting a chance to practice at home. I stole my lil gyals ukulele, a $20 Kmart special and put two different sized whipper snipper cord on it 🙂 sounds suprisingly ok! It just fits but the neck feels a bit short
I have to thank PeteMcK from western Sydney. Your tip on the U-Bass opened up a world of possibilities for me. I like the sound. Even the cheapest is a bit out of price range for me at the moment. When I listen to the that pattern, felt like every sound struck just blasting away stress and the changing patterns. Feels like if I can sit in the cab and play like this randomly will be like meditation
I am about to cut out the 'paddle plank' and run two whipper snipper cords on it! m not kidding 🙂
Have a look at headless bass options - they make a significant difference to the length.
Just don't poke it out the window unless you like talking to people in blue uniforms!
I have small bodied guitar, sort of like a lapsteel. Mr Plod loves seeing that in it's bag on the backseat (or in the boot)😱
For those of us who are not lucky enough to be Australian, could you kindly translate "whipper snipper cords" for us? 😀
Are these basically rubber cords with a cotton wrap, usually called "bungee cords" in North America?
-Gnobuddy
Yeah mono-filament nylon weed trimmer cord. Its a pity that my full set of fishing leader materials are overseas otherwise I'd be set for thick line in various sizes and composition 🙂 The 1.8mm blue from Bunnings hardware has a nice sound actually
Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I had looked at it before but then I knew a lot less to be able to make even any calls on it plus I couldn't find much in the way of readily available instruments that I could afford. I have been going through parts lists again now and looks like I can implement it DIY. It will definitely help!
PRR
I haven't yet cut the plank, I found a decent old wooden bed dumped by roadside and rescued it. Plenty of timber in storage now 🙂 Reason why I haven't rushed into it is the material you posted. Thanks mate. I have been going over it and what you shared makes sense to me as I am familiar with similar implications on audio reproduction end so I wanted to make a bit more effort to optimize the paddle plank
I measured up available space in my taxi. I have a comfortable 30" for total instrument length and 34" for a cramped fit. Now I am off to check for what strings I can find that will fit this. So far the Kala U-Bass strings for 24" scale is leading. What I am still trying to find are flatwound metal strings for bass that can fit
I plan on reversing the tuning peg and bridge positions, peg turning tings I will recess into the paddle board somehow to cut down on accidental movement
Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I had looked at it before but then I knew a lot less to be able to make even any calls on it plus I couldn't find much in the way of readily available instruments that I could afford. I have been going through parts lists again now and looks like I can implement it DIY. It will definitely help!
PRR
I haven't yet cut the plank, I found a decent old wooden bed dumped by roadside and rescued it. Plenty of timber in storage now 🙂 Reason why I haven't rushed into it is the material you posted. Thanks mate. I have been going over it and what you shared makes sense to me as I am familiar with similar implications on audio reproduction end so I wanted to make a bit more effort to optimize the paddle plank
I measured up available space in my taxi. I have a comfortable 30" for total instrument length and 34" for a cramped fit. Now I am off to check for what strings I can find that will fit this. So far the Kala U-Bass strings for 24" scale is leading. What I am still trying to find are flatwound metal strings for bass that can fit
I plan on reversing the tuning peg and bridge positions, peg turning tings I will recess into the paddle board somehow to cut down on accidental movement
I have found this image online. Its going to be handy 🙂
http://www.warmoth.com/Guitar/images/necks/30ScaleNeckMeasurements.jpg
Now I have basic dimensions for plank bass mk1 🙂 Overall length 30" max and accommodating 30" scale on it by going neckless. Itching to cut something 🙂
http://www.warmoth.com/Guitar/images/necks/30ScaleNeckMeasurements.jpg
Now I have basic dimensions for plank bass mk1 🙂 Overall length 30" max and accommodating 30" scale on it by going neckless. Itching to cut something 🙂
Is that possible? I think you need at least a few centimetres on the far side of the bridge to accommodate the tuners. That means the overall length of the instrument will be a bit more than the scale length, even on a headless instrument.
The attached image shows the nut and bridge ends of a headless Steinberger bass. As you can see, the tuning hardware extends for a considerable distance beyond the bridge.
In the "headless" Steinberger design, there are also several centimetres of neck extending beyond the nut at the other end, also adding to the overall length of the instrument.
-Gnobuddy
Attachments
Maybe, looks like it may be ok to send the strings around the body through holes. Over the last few days have been going over 4000 results on an ebay search for "bass guitar parts" just to see whats out there. Still thinking on this. So far my most kiss thought is to fit the nut thing to the end of the neck at an angle and shoots the strings out 90 degrees... anchoring points, pegs and things on another plane to the body
This gone headless also seems to be an excellent option to end up with the most comfortable instrument for my particular use. This with 25" U-Bass strings or 30" scale thru body steel strings should let me custom a total instrument length just under 30"
I have been working 7 nights for the last 8 weeks which is not allowing me the time I need to work on this. Also means budget is limited or I wouldn't have to work 7 days. I am serious about learning to play and wish to end up with a playable instrument. Need to find an affordable neck to give a bit of a head start
Option 1: Beheading a 30" scale neck and going for the shortest possible body length. According to my calculations I should end up with a working string length of about 28 to 29"
Option 2: Beheading a 25 1/2" scale guitar neck and building a bass with that. With 25" scale U-Bass strings
I am more inclined towards option one as it seems to offer more fret length, my experiments with my lil gyals uke showed that the really short neck was too compressed fret board length
Eden guitars carries a paddle head 30" scale neck with dots on both sides. This is the best value neck I have come across so far. There is a cheaper ebay item but I don't know if its toy like. Trying to wait for a gumtree cheapie to appear so I can rip into that. Please, if anyone reading this knows of a neck maker in Sydney who can assist with a well priced blem or similar, I would really appreciate it
I don't know why you quoted me, but I'll put up my recommendation again:
Convert a 25.5" guitar.
Buy the parts off ebay from China. 4 bass string tuners, $10? 1 precut bass nut, $1? 1 bass bridge, $5? Strings? You probably need to go to 500K or 1M pots, but you can keep the guitar pickups and pickguard.
Convert a 25.5" guitar.
Buy the parts off ebay from China. 4 bass string tuners, $10? 1 precut bass nut, $1? 1 bass bridge, $5? Strings? You probably need to go to 500K or 1M pots, but you can keep the guitar pickups and pickguard.
The best bass forum is: https://www.talkbass.com/forums/basses-bg.8/
There are cheaper Uke basses than the ones mentioned in the article. Check out the Rondo site: Rondo Music Bass Guitars Scroll down and you'll see the Hadean Uke basses, both acoustic and solid bodies. I believe the smaller ones are 20" scale. There are threads about them on Talkbass. I'd guess they are available, probably cheaper, in Australia or shipped directly from China.
Unless you're really looking for a project, I'd suggest just buying something. It seems like your time is pretty limited and trying to build something like this when you have no experience is unlikely to produce something usable, IMO.
I saw a super short instrument recently on TB that was made expressly for travel / practice. I think it is tuned higher and uses an octave pedal to drop it down to the correct range. Not cheap, but very cool. If I come across it I'll post a link.
There are cheaper Uke basses than the ones mentioned in the article. Check out the Rondo site: Rondo Music Bass Guitars Scroll down and you'll see the Hadean Uke basses, both acoustic and solid bodies. I believe the smaller ones are 20" scale. There are threads about them on Talkbass. I'd guess they are available, probably cheaper, in Australia or shipped directly from China.
Unless you're really looking for a project, I'd suggest just buying something. It seems like your time is pretty limited and trying to build something like this when you have no experience is unlikely to produce something usable, IMO.
I saw a super short instrument recently on TB that was made expressly for travel / practice. I think it is tuned higher and uses an octave pedal to drop it down to the correct range. Not cheap, but very cool. If I come across it I'll post a link.
Acknowledging your input has been of significant help. Has now finally made sense after continued study of this issue and a fairly comprehensive online browse of available parts. It sank in, that since there are U-Bass strings available for 25 1/2" scale and and that became a solid option for me. Exactly as you just expanded, swap out parts and mod to suit
So guys I hope this shows my current grasp of the issue. 30" scale strings also appear to work too with creative thinking and inspiration from other creative thinkers. I am very grateful for all you fellas who have made the effort to chime in as now I have two solid options for going DIY. And have learnt a lot more about this and related issues then I started with in the OP
I am posting some pics of a few things I have made previously, this is honestly not an effort to show off but to convey that I could possibly be capable of adequate ability to carry this off. That I am serious and not wasting the time or knowledge you fellas are making the effort to share
These are some fishing rods that I designed and built years ago. They ware very different from rods on the market then and I designed them for exactly how I want a rod to feel, look and handle for a very specialized role
GT Popping rods, specialist style for fish in the 100lb class with lines from 60 to 180lbs. As far as I knew this was the first published successful design using the LC guidetrain to eliminate casting tangle dramas with souped up lures to 300grams. Took about a years testing and design to succeed
My first attempt at scales pattern but using flat chrome threads which everyone were saying is too hard for this. Was pretty easy when actually trying it, easier then the usual thread types
Aim was to match the gold on the reel. The rod is wrapped again in flat gold chrome thread which was supposed to be too bloody hard
Simple elegant
This one I did as a tribute to the concept car I was lusting for
Elegant?
Built this rod rack years ago. Deep epoxy finish
Couple of light units that helped my team take out the pro comp season outright one year
More classic blend with modern
I called this the mint
Five years ago I found myself living in a remote area on a lil island for 4 years. I wanted I fishing boat so I read up on it and designed and built one. I had almost zero access to boat bits there so had to fabricate items using very basic tools, some items I had brought with me. Designed and built a trailer too for bank launching where reversing into water wasn't appropriate. Nearest not tiller boat and trailer was 130km away to double check for any inspiration. Had to do most of it direct from mental design when it came to fitout
Finishing touches
Putting the boat on, have build and design pics of the boat too
Fabricating parts out of scavenged alloy
All the bits coming together. Had to design and build it on the spot. Sitting back with a cig and kofiii helped, did not have an internet connection there. Handles are from a pair of pliers. Had to make a safe design that would interlock to prevent movement of the gear controls when throttle was active
Had to design a locking system for the control cables. Made it from stainless to fit in the locking grooves in the cable ends
Fabricating more bits from scavenged alloy
All bits done
That what they helped me create. Height and inclination adjustable the rear shade folds over the front to allow standing operation
TooBads in Fiji 012 765 by Jonny TooBad, on Flickr
This is a project in progress. Its a long term project. I have finished designing the hulls. Its for a specialist role again. A fast and efficient 30' cat capable of crossing very choppy kilometres wide lagoons in year around tradewinds. This will be my platform for a commercial GT charter operation in around 5 to 10 years time finances allowing
Music has always been a passion, listing and presenting. Playing the bass has been a personal fantasy that I now have time to practice and lots of time to devote to studying it but right now not much time to build it. Hopping that in about 3 weeks I will be able to get out of the red zone and go back to working just 5 nights. I really appreciate the assist here and I hope that some glimpse of ability and determination will inspire folks to chime in
I tried that forum but seems like its a closed crowd there. I have been through a lot of threads here on Diyaudio and feel at home with the culture here. There is a lot of open sharing of knowledge happening on this site. I hope I can be of assistance to someone too
Apologies for posting so much material to wade through
Jon
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