Hello friends of DIYA,
I started a thread with a subject relatively common and hundreds similar will exists, but because of it I decided to start one to "filter" the options
(is difficult to find a direct comparision in 100000 posts )
I have a application with the old Audio Nirvana stamped frame, and I thinking recently to experiment the Tang Band W8-1772, because I become curious about the strong underhung motor, scary low VC inductance (in fact lower than some tweeters!!
), bigger Xmax and not too peaky response in comparision with the AN model.
So, if someone in this forum compared/listened impressions about the two, or have ideas about, I will be happy to know.
TBH I'm basically happy with the AN in actual apllication but the speaker bug always appears to hit one day... and to experiment some new full range, after too much multi-way playing
I started a thread with a subject relatively common and hundreds similar will exists, but because of it I decided to start one to "filter" the options
(is difficult to find a direct comparision in 100000 posts )I have a application with the old Audio Nirvana stamped frame, and I thinking recently to experiment the Tang Band W8-1772, because I become curious about the strong underhung motor, scary low VC inductance (in fact lower than some tweeters!!
), bigger Xmax and not too peaky response in comparision with the AN model.So, if someone in this forum compared/listened impressions about the two, or have ideas about, I will be happy to know.
TBH I'm basically happy with the AN in actual apllication but the speaker bug always appears to hit one day... and to experiment some new full range, after too much multi-way playing
Sorry, I have never heard the AN drivers.
But, I have used the 1772 in a sealed box, a vented box and in OB.
It is a marvellous driver that will bring clarity, but... it is a bit ragged in its FR and will need work to sound good. Definitively not plug and play. But if you have access to a good active EQ setup (or DRC), then it's easy to make it sing.
But, I have used the 1772 in a sealed box, a vented box and in OB.
It is a marvellous driver that will bring clarity, but... it is a bit ragged in its FR and will need work to sound good. Definitively not plug and play. But if you have access to a good active EQ setup (or DRC), then it's easy to make it sing.
I have AN 10 in the 2.8 cabinets and my one friend and cousin all have them also from 6.5 in. to 15in. in various cabinets , they are not the last word in sound quality . don't know much about the TB series of driver. When we got into this single drive speaker part of stereo we all noticed a vast improvement to the sound over multi driver systems. the 6.5 inch AN sounded real good in my solid wood Abbys Cain&Cain I built years ago which unfortunately were lost in a fire. What makes the audio nirvanas attractive is that you can drive them to high volume with 2 watts!!!!
Good! So the maker graph is not too far from reality (not too smoothed like most), being really flatter/not too peaky like most fullrangers
The rising response will not be a problem in my system (to be fair, will be an advantage)
yes, these sing with low power! A must for small amplifiers My cousin have a 6.5 Cast Frame with a PLC85 PP amplifier (supplemented with a subwoofer), and are pleased with it.
One friend of mine have a AN10 but with a trapezoidal shaped box (with approx. 2.8 model internal volume). Sounds good! This AN10 I used some time ago with a giant OB, with far more bass one expects from OB or even full-ranges (recently I selled these AN to my friend, to experiment with new designs). Fun times!
Other friend of mine is making a TQWT for a AN8 Cast Frame. Let's see the results!
I cannot speak directly about the 1772, but I have lived with the W8 1808 for a while now. I bought them on impulse in excellent used condition from a Craigslist ad for only about $150.
I've had them mounted in a pair of Oris 200 horns that were pieced together affordably by myself. I found them in our swap meet. They somehow circulated sans rear chambers as a result of Welbourne Labs liquidating it seems. The finish was ruined on them, so I had to sand them down to remove the copper plating. They are still in an experimental "raw" finish state. I made new rear chambers from sewer pipe, window gasket foam and MDF.
The horns were originally intended for a pair of NOS Fostex 206e I have. I also hoped to experiment with other high efficiency 8 inch drivers to compare the results. That is what interested me in this thread.
The efficiency is really where the TB 1808 initially seem to let me down. It's only rated at about 93dB. My goal was to be able to use a pair of Quicksilver Horn Monos in conjunction with my old Audible Illusions 2D to drive them in the horns. I installed the 1808s with open rear chambers, which I'm sure does not help low frequency response. I couldn't come up with any data that informed me how to calculate a proper volume rear chamber of any kind. My research, if I recall correctly, seemed to point toward success with the 1808 in either very large volume MLTL style enclosures or open baffle. Hence, my decision to leave the back chamber open.
They seemed dead with this arrangement. I eventually gave Quicksilver a call to talk it over with them. It seemed that the push pull horn monos really don't begin to "sing" until you approach the 100dB efficiency range. Regardless of what reviewers tried with them and said. They were originally designed and built for Klipschorns and the like.
On a whim I decided to put together an Audiosector LM3875 premium kit I had to try with the combination. The difference was night and day. I got beautiful holographic imaging with great detail. Granted, there was a definite sweet spot and the bottom end needed help.
I don't even have a proper preamp to utilize with the arrangement. I believe the AI preamp was incompatible with the DC coupled gainclone, and I had not added any caps in it's signal path. I simply put together a MiniDSP I was interested in trying with a volume control to place between my source and the amp and tested for DC at the output of the amp. I have to manually switch cables for sources.
I came up with an old Jamo subwoofer for free from my wife's uncle and worked it into the system by ear by setting the MiniDSP up with a fourth order Butterworth at 150Hz if I remember correctly.
I like to listen to a lot of female vocalists, small ensembles, jazz, flamenco, chill, chamber and especially live recordings. But I also like to throw on Tom Waits, The Black Keys and a lot of blues sometimes. This is where it falls apart. There is absolutely a huge lack of midbass kick. It is a dilemma that I haven't had the time to solve as of yet.
I still haven't given up on my aspirations to utilize my tube preamp and amps with a well paired driver in the horns. I am very interested in pursuing a comparison not only of different drivers, but also a well paired and tuned tube based system against what I can come up with using solid state.
This has pushed me in the direction of preparing to learn more about testing and I acquired a umik-1. But I haven't had success yet and am a bit turned off by the learning curve.
I have only recently been able to acquire a set of used Lowther DX3s which is what would be considered the "entry" level driver that Bert designed and intended for use with the Oris horns.
Hopefully, the near future will allow me to compare the TB vs Fostex vs Lowther. Perhaps, even with a more properly designed low frequency system implemented.
I've had them mounted in a pair of Oris 200 horns that were pieced together affordably by myself. I found them in our swap meet. They somehow circulated sans rear chambers as a result of Welbourne Labs liquidating it seems. The finish was ruined on them, so I had to sand them down to remove the copper plating. They are still in an experimental "raw" finish state. I made new rear chambers from sewer pipe, window gasket foam and MDF.
The horns were originally intended for a pair of NOS Fostex 206e I have. I also hoped to experiment with other high efficiency 8 inch drivers to compare the results. That is what interested me in this thread.
The efficiency is really where the TB 1808 initially seem to let me down. It's only rated at about 93dB. My goal was to be able to use a pair of Quicksilver Horn Monos in conjunction with my old Audible Illusions 2D to drive them in the horns. I installed the 1808s with open rear chambers, which I'm sure does not help low frequency response. I couldn't come up with any data that informed me how to calculate a proper volume rear chamber of any kind. My research, if I recall correctly, seemed to point toward success with the 1808 in either very large volume MLTL style enclosures or open baffle. Hence, my decision to leave the back chamber open.
They seemed dead with this arrangement. I eventually gave Quicksilver a call to talk it over with them. It seemed that the push pull horn monos really don't begin to "sing" until you approach the 100dB efficiency range. Regardless of what reviewers tried with them and said. They were originally designed and built for Klipschorns and the like.
On a whim I decided to put together an Audiosector LM3875 premium kit I had to try with the combination. The difference was night and day. I got beautiful holographic imaging with great detail. Granted, there was a definite sweet spot and the bottom end needed help.
I don't even have a proper preamp to utilize with the arrangement. I believe the AI preamp was incompatible with the DC coupled gainclone, and I had not added any caps in it's signal path. I simply put together a MiniDSP I was interested in trying with a volume control to place between my source and the amp and tested for DC at the output of the amp. I have to manually switch cables for sources.
I came up with an old Jamo subwoofer for free from my wife's uncle and worked it into the system by ear by setting the MiniDSP up with a fourth order Butterworth at 150Hz if I remember correctly.
I like to listen to a lot of female vocalists, small ensembles, jazz, flamenco, chill, chamber and especially live recordings. But I also like to throw on Tom Waits, The Black Keys and a lot of blues sometimes. This is where it falls apart. There is absolutely a huge lack of midbass kick. It is a dilemma that I haven't had the time to solve as of yet.
I still haven't given up on my aspirations to utilize my tube preamp and amps with a well paired driver in the horns. I am very interested in pursuing a comparison not only of different drivers, but also a well paired and tuned tube based system against what I can come up with using solid state.
This has pushed me in the direction of preparing to learn more about testing and I acquired a umik-1. But I haven't had success yet and am a bit turned off by the learning curve.
I have only recently been able to acquire a set of used Lowther DX3s which is what would be considered the "entry" level driver that Bert designed and intended for use with the Oris horns.
Hopefully, the near future will allow me to compare the TB vs Fostex vs Lowther. Perhaps, even with a more properly designed low frequency system implemented.
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single fullrange
Hello ,
i found in my horn tests, sonic problems of such driver depents on single working,
look my double horns with measurements and feedback, SAXOPHON, POSAUNE XL,
RDH20 and if a sub added SAtellit the SCHALMEI-SAT, Horn-SAT
Hello ,
i found in my horn tests, sonic problems of such driver depents on single working,
look my double horns with measurements and feedback, SAXOPHON, POSAUNE XL,
RDH20 and if a sub added SAtellit the SCHALMEI-SAT, Horn-SAT
Attachments
lol, midbass kick.
I hate to say it, but this really isn't that forum, lol.
I'm closing in on it.
I think it has to do with output, cone area, and distance.
I'm still chasing the kick of my double 15's.
Closest I had was running the 15's (in corner) wide open and running 12" (in corner) rolled @200hz.
I'll use the crossover in the receiver tomorrow to see if rolling the 15's @ 200hz and the 12" @200hz has enough kick for me.
I hate to say it, but this really isn't that forum, lol.
I'm closing in on it.
I think it has to do with output, cone area, and distance.
I'm still chasing the kick of my double 15's.
Closest I had was running the 15's (in corner) wide open and running 12" (in corner) rolled @200hz.
I'll use the crossover in the receiver tomorrow to see if rolling the 15's @ 200hz and the 12" @200hz has enough kick for me.
I'll have to re-visit 1772 and the stamped frame AN8 to give much input. My AN8's free air resonance moved from about 42Hz to the 60's area, moving Qts upwards too to around 0.38. I don't know if the resonance would go back down with play or not (- guessing "not")
1772 sounds reasonably neutral - like a well executed small 2-way. I think it worked OK in the little BK20 cabinet. I've run it in Karlson type from K12 (about 1.3 cubic foot rear chamber)downwards to K8 size (about 1/2 cubic foot rear chamber) In that application it seemed to prefer no more than around 1 cubic foot rear chamber. 1772 had 2-5dB more output in the 110-220Hz octave in K12 than it did in the similar bulk skinny K-coupler in the Youtube clips below.
btw, the Eminence 12CX I use with 80oz magnet, is about 6-7dB hotter than a 1772.
AN8 has a dark-ish midrange compared to FE206EN - I'm not sure how much of that is from FE206EN's high-Q 3K6 peak (?)
here's 1772 in a small Karlson-coupler - use neutral headphones to listen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1RYpD9MrV0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuNOzlQAVlw
Karlson's K15, prototyped in 1951, put on market in 1952, can exhibit great "kick" and musicality. The little K12 rolls off below 80 - maybe 70 but also has a lot of kick if woofers /coax in the upper 90's are employed. I like K12 better than my Klipschorns. A subwoofer would help K12 and K15. K12 is a good substitute for a midbass horn and K15 better impact wise than a lot of midbass horns.
I have the Karlsonator12 variant by GregB and it was nice with Nirvana Super10 and 12LTA. Am not sure if much "hit" from those weak drivers.
maybe when the weather warms again, I'll load the Karlsonator12 with a moderate motor 12CX. I have Beyma 12CX to deal with first in K12s.
1772 sounds reasonably neutral - like a well executed small 2-way. I think it worked OK in the little BK20 cabinet. I've run it in Karlson type from K12 (about 1.3 cubic foot rear chamber)downwards to K8 size (about 1/2 cubic foot rear chamber) In that application it seemed to prefer no more than around 1 cubic foot rear chamber. 1772 had 2-5dB more output in the 110-220Hz octave in K12 than it did in the similar bulk skinny K-coupler in the Youtube clips below.
btw, the Eminence 12CX I use with 80oz magnet, is about 6-7dB hotter than a 1772.
AN8 has a dark-ish midrange compared to FE206EN - I'm not sure how much of that is from FE206EN's high-Q 3K6 peak (?)
here's 1772 in a small Karlson-coupler - use neutral headphones to listen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1RYpD9MrV0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuNOzlQAVlw
Karlson's K15, prototyped in 1951, put on market in 1952, can exhibit great "kick" and musicality. The little K12 rolls off below 80 - maybe 70 but also has a lot of kick if woofers /coax in the upper 90's are employed. I like K12 better than my Klipschorns. A subwoofer would help K12 and K15. K12 is a good substitute for a midbass horn and K15 better impact wise than a lot of midbass horns.
I have the Karlsonator12 variant by GregB and it was nice with Nirvana Super10 and 12LTA. Am not sure if much "hit" from those weak drivers.
maybe when the weather warms again, I'll load the Karlsonator12 with a moderate motor 12CX. I have Beyma 12CX to deal with first in K12s.
Thanks all for impressions!
chromenuts, I also noted that lower efficiency or more "behaved" drivers sings better with more "conventional" amplifiers, like ones with high DF. In contrast, my experience with AN dictates tube amps with low DF, but it can be only my personal perference.
hm, good photos! In your photos, is the 1808 in "non-horn" box?
norman bates, midbass kick? Is about the eg. "drum kick" (the midbass impact)?
I remember when having the AN10 in my system, in giant OB. I miss the kick bass from this arrangement. I also believe that it must to be related with cone area, since is not first time I perceived this correlation, but exceptions always exists. TBH in my OB a bass hump at near 80Hz exists, and this is a region to make the kick "alive" (at least a friend of mine having a recording studio says something about it).
freddi, my friend Maurício have a couple of Karlson boxes. He used it in the 60's. Commented about the good sounding. When I saw it at first time, I become curious about it. But I never tried this box type.
About your AN, same thing occurred with AN10 when I selled it to Ângelo friend. He put it in a dusty placement, so the suspension hardened a lot, with resulting high fs and very bad midrange (very strong ~2kHz peak). He used turpentine in low quantity to solve the suspension gooey.
I'm at work now and I'm without headphones, but I noted the link.
chromenuts, I also noted that lower efficiency or more "behaved" drivers sings better with more "conventional" amplifiers, like ones with high DF. In contrast, my experience with AN dictates tube amps with low DF, but it can be only my personal perference.
hm, good photos! In your photos, is the 1808 in "non-horn" box?
norman bates, midbass kick? Is about the eg. "drum kick" (the midbass impact)?
I remember when having the AN10 in my system, in giant OB. I miss the kick bass from this arrangement. I also believe that it must to be related with cone area, since is not first time I perceived this correlation, but exceptions always exists. TBH in my OB a bass hump at near 80Hz exists, and this is a region to make the kick "alive" (at least a friend of mine having a recording studio says something about it).
freddi, my friend Maurício have a couple of Karlson boxes. He used it in the 60's. Commented about the good sounding. When I saw it at first time, I become curious about it. But I never tried this box type.
About your AN, same thing occurred with AN10 when I selled it to Ângelo friend. He put it in a dusty placement, so the suspension hardened a lot, with resulting high fs and very bad midrange (very strong ~2kHz peak). He used turpentine in low quantity to solve the suspension gooey.
I'm at work now and I'm without headphones, but I noted the link.
Attachments
kick, I found, can also be harmonic time aligned distortion.
My pioneer b20 sometimes had kick, or a nice bit of thunk thunk in its .577 box.
And I found my 4x12" push pull doesn't have the kick of double 15's in same setup.
Someone else noticed his 4x18" ppsl sealeds didn't have kick of direct radiators.
ppsl measure cleaner harmonic distortion than direct radiators.
Another friend said they tried push pull in cars early 90's and noticed it just seemed less.
I remember an article on jaes where a bass horn had less harmonic distortion, at the same level, than direct radiators that seemed louder while measuring same output.
My buddy made some subs with short xmax drivers, they seemed to have some kick.
So kick, slam can be result of boosted (or harmonic distortion) 100-250hz, among other things.
My pioneer b20 sometimes had kick, or a nice bit of thunk thunk in its .577 box.
And I found my 4x12" push pull doesn't have the kick of double 15's in same setup.
Someone else noticed his 4x18" ppsl sealeds didn't have kick of direct radiators.
ppsl measure cleaner harmonic distortion than direct radiators.
Another friend said they tried push pull in cars early 90's and noticed it just seemed less.
I remember an article on jaes where a bass horn had less harmonic distortion, at the same level, than direct radiators that seemed louder while measuring same output.
My buddy made some subs with short xmax drivers, they seemed to have some kick.
So kick, slam can be result of boosted (or harmonic distortion) 100-250hz, among other things.
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here's an 11 cubic foot Yorkville pipe-horn vs a crude K15 size K-coupler loaded with an 18 inch Eminence. The K-coupler was tuned a bit lower than what I would use and lacked the rear lowpass shelf of K15. The K had 20dB less distortion than the horn which cost me a lot and was brand new.
regular Karlson may not be suitable for subwoofer - although using one like Exemplar was the best I heard. (that uses two 3" ID right angle PVC elbows mounted over the regular 4.5"x9" port and a 515 Altec - I used a 416 - also, boost is applied at ~30Hz)
regular Karlson may not be suitable for subwoofer - although using one like Exemplar was the best I heard. (that uses two 3" ID right angle PVC elbows mounted over the regular 4.5"x9" port and a 515 Altec - I used a 416 - also, boost is applied at ~30Hz)
I'm curious but I don't see the attached image... sometimes I'm unable to see direct attached images, and only see the ones at "normal attachments". Probably a firewall error...here's an 11 cubic foot Yorkville pipe-horn vs a crude K15 size K-coupler loaded with an 18 inch Eminence. The K-coupler was tuned a bit lower than what I would use and lacked the rear lowpass shelf of K15. The K had 20dB less distortion than the horn which cost me a lot and was brand new.
regular Karlson may not be suitable for subwoofer - although using one like Exemplar was the best I heard. (that uses two 3" ID right angle PVC elbows mounted over the regular 4.5"x9" port and a 515 Altec - I used a 416 - also, boost is applied at ~30Hz)
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