Yes, I forgot - although I am not impressed with the esoteric line. Seems overpriced for how much breakup there was and not much more sensitivity. It was used in the recent XO contest and dealing with its ripples and peaks were to say it mildly, challenging. The RS products are all very smooth and flat measuring with maybe one peak up high in the case of the RS225. The RS28's as far as I can tell are class-leading flat smooth responses. The PM's look like de-whizzered versions of the PS neodymium motor variants.
The PS180 and PS225 are also high value products. Who else gives high tech neodymium motor full range drives with cast frame, phase plug, and Klippel data for their drives at these prices? And don't forget ready and available Frd and Zma files on hand for starting your own xo sims before getting drivers.
The PS180 and PS225 are also high value products. Who else gives high tech neodymium motor full range drives with cast frame, phase plug, and Klippel data for their drives at these prices? And don't forget ready and available Frd and Zma files on hand for starting your own xo sims before getting drivers.
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Sorry for offending. I retract!
Rip off is to strong word. Inspired is better🙂
Still you have originals (that themselves are inspired by others). What is defined as the original is not always easy to decide.
With consistency I mean you can buy the same or similar unit 10 years later.
I agree the imediate value of those Asia newcomers are excelent!
The SEAS value lines are about 50$. And those elements are super.
The top end is priced "over the top" as other luxury gods in the world.
Rip off is to strong word. Inspired is better🙂
Still you have originals (that themselves are inspired by others). What is defined as the original is not always easy to decide.
With consistency I mean you can buy the same or similar unit 10 years later.
I agree the imediate value of those Asia newcomers are excelent!
The SEAS value lines are about 50$. And those elements are super.
The top end is priced "over the top" as other luxury gods in the world.
I'm with you on the esoteric woofers. There's a lot of choice at the $120 range for midwoofers. Wavecor WF152, Vifa NE, satori's, Dayton's own PS etc. Tough to justify the Dayton esoteric when all the above have much more manageable FR and dispersion.
The RS28A is a fantastic option and it measure very well but the $30-50 mark is very crowded with great options IMO. Vifa XTs, Seas 27tbfcg, Half of the SB acoustics tweeter range etc. etc. To me, the big advantage of Dayton drivers is as you mentioned, readily available data that makes it easier to simulate before you actually purchase.
Yes the $50 tweeter space has a lot of choices of great performing devices from many manufacturers. I should point out that the Dayton DC28F-8 measures very flat and sounds very nice for only $20. It has a plastic bezel which seems to be the main complaint making it feel "cheap". It doesn't sound or measure cheap though.
I also like Vifa very much for high value. But I guess they are not technically "European" anymore. The designs were once from DK though.
I also like Vifa very much for high value. But I guess they are not technically "European" anymore. The designs were once from DK though.
Just wondering what kind of equipment you are driving the $20 elements with? Hope it is not a 20$ tweeter and a 10$ polyprop cap in the filter.
I think a well designed audio system has at least 50% of the cost in speaker elements. Almost all the end distortion and unlinearity comes from those mechanical elements.
Maybe that is why I am out of tune regarding speaker element price and value.
I get irritated seeing 1000$ of electronics driving 100$ worth of speakerelements🙂
I think a well designed audio system has at least 50% of the cost in speaker elements. Almost all the end distortion and unlinearity comes from those mechanical elements.
Maybe that is why I am out of tune regarding speaker element price and value.
I get irritated seeing 1000$ of electronics driving 100$ worth of speakerelements🙂
You are absolutely right. Living in Europe, my first choice of brand
name units would be europeian brands, first Visaton because I
have a store in my neighborhood, and if I fail to find what I look for,
then Seas. Seas' lines of affordable drivers is among the best in the
world, as well as other brands like Peerless, SS, etc. The differences are
so minor that really it's a matter of a taste and expense. Nobody can
afford to manufacture crap.
Did you rip out the pole piece and look underneath it? Not all motors have copper rings that are visible from a top down visual.
I use a miniDSP and class D TPA3116D2 amps - all at cost of $150 total including amps. Sound quality is very good in my opinion - although I can't directly compare with SQ from a $500 passive XO. Sometimes I put a $1 Panasonic 3.3uF poly film cap in series with a tweeter when doing a direct drive characterization sweep with no miniDSP for the high pass filter.
While I don't think I missed anything, I did not take it down that far- but I can.
I'll update this when I get a second to find out...
Wolf
That makes sense.
Guess drivers will be in the 100$ range then and close to 50% of total cost.
Of course one could discuss if elements with nice rolloff and a well designed passive filter can be just as good at moderate levels and 180$ could be used at elements.
The comment for the polycap was about using boutiqe crossover components and ordinary/cheap speakerelements;-)
BTW I have long experience of driving standard SEAS/ scanspeak/peerless/vifa elements active (miniDSP/Behringer) with very good results. They can play very loud and clean with sharp filters.
To contradict myself it, is also worth trying out a 3 way with good lowpriced elements with active bass and mid/high. Mid/high can be passive, 24 dB/oct, and even corrected by DSP. So no resistors in crossover.
Such a system plays loud in a normal room.
Just be sure the mid element is of good quality, meaning low harmonics and even frequency responce.
Regards Torgeir
https://sites.google.com/site/passivefilter/
I can also mention that I have the standard miniDSP and a scanspeak Revelator tweeter ring radiator http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/r2904-700000.pdf in the same system and it sounds fantastic... So mixing cheap electronics and expensive elements is no problem as long as the quality is high on both. High sensitivity tweeter can have a low power amp if driven active.
A active analog crossover is also an alternative. It could be made very cheap with the (new 5/20V to +/- 15 V power blocs), 4 channel opamp and 4 NPO/G0G caps pr channel (24dB/oct). 1% resistors is good enough. 10k range resisistors make little demand on opamp powersupply and high value caps can be used. Still noise is in the -100dB range.
WEBENCH® Filter Designer Tool - TI.com
A active analog crossover is also an alternative. It could be made very cheap with the (new 5/20V to +/- 15 V power blocs), 4 channel opamp and 4 NPO/G0G caps pr channel (24dB/oct). 1% resistors is good enough. 10k range resisistors make little demand on opamp powersupply and high value caps can be used. Still noise is in the -100dB range.
WEBENCH® Filter Designer Tool - TI.com
Maybe yours had silver in them.
Are these good quality/sound?:
Airborne FR148B6-18L
They seem to have a small magnet and pictures are fuzzy
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Visaton AL200? Q may be slightly different, and value per $ may be slightly lesser.
As for the tweeter, the G20SC is comparable price wise, but differs in other aspects. The SB29 may be a good comparison though.
For DIYers in the states (especially, and more so than EU), Dayton is good value and performance. For me, there are similar offerings from the EU with equal or better performance, at similar (or slightly higher) cost.
Sadly, I buy very little US product any longer
I recently built two Bass reflex enclosure using the Dayton PS-8. 8" drivers.
The enclosures are 40 litres nett with 8.7cmdia x 17.6cm port with 40mm padding on the back side. The bass is quite good, but the mid s and highs are a bit elevated and Imay have to add some filters. The clarity however is great. Good value for money i must say.
The enclosures are 40 litres nett with 8.7cmdia x 17.6cm port with 40mm padding on the back side. The bass is quite good, but the mid s and highs are a bit elevated and Imay have to add some filters. The clarity however is great. Good value for money i must say.
So this may have been discussed, but I've looked long and hard at Dayton drivers, especially the woofers, in trying to come up with a good match for a 2-way. When I mention before that I felt Dayton was stuck in the 80's this is kind of what I meant. They don't seem to have the smooth response, or the bass extension that I've come to expect from a Seas or Scanspeak or SB woofer in the 6.5" to 8" range.
Stuck on a deserted island AND being forced by the local warlord to only make 2-way speakers, Dayton would be a tough brand to pick. I'd have to go with SB or Scanspeak or Seas. Still, I like those prices!
Best,
Erik
Stuck on a deserted island AND being forced by the local warlord to only make 2-way speakers, Dayton would be a tough brand to pick. I'd have to go with SB or Scanspeak or Seas. Still, I like those prices!
Best,
Erik
Actually Dayton's mid/bass drivers used to need larger cabinets and went much lower. This was quite a pain for many of us who need to optimise around smaller cabinets. It seemed Dayton were aware of this and changed a lot of their drivers. They now optimise into smaller cabinets but obviously have less bass extension.
I guess the smooth response is some of what you pay for, but also what you may expect given a lot of their drivers use metal or more proprietary materials.
Still I find their metal cones easy enough to work with given the type of xover frequency you'd expect to cross them at and some of their drivers have nice smooth/extended responses. I'm not usually fussed by drivers that have peaky responses away from where I'd intend to cross them over and I do tend to like crossing low, others design choices may vary.
I guess the smooth response is some of what you pay for, but also what you may expect given a lot of their drivers use metal or more proprietary materials.
Still I find their metal cones easy enough to work with given the type of xover frequency you'd expect to cross them at and some of their drivers have nice smooth/extended responses. I'm not usually fussed by drivers that have peaky responses away from where I'd intend to cross them over and I do tend to like crossing low, others design choices may vary.
They don't? My 'benchmark' 7" woofer for overall performance would probably be the Scanspeak 18W8531 and that is already breaking up at 1kHz with a +5dB hump in the frequency response.
Moving on to SB Acoustics SB17NRXC35-8 there are already some mild hihg-Q wiggles in the response just above 1kHz, and huge +10dB shelf beginning at 4.5kHz. This is one of the more difficult woofers to integrate into a 2-way but worth the effort.
Finally the Dayton RS180-8, it is almost a pure piston to 4kHz, then severe breakup only sets in about 6kHz. Dealing with the breakup is easy - just position a resonant notch in between the two worst breakup nodes and nuke them out of existence. In a 3-way you probably don't even need to deal with them.
It's actually better to use stiff cone materials on woofers with simpler motors like the RS180 because it pushes the breakup to a higher frequency which cleans up the non-linear (harmonic) distortion through the upper midrange. If you have broad breakup nodes low down in frequency you may achieve 'smooth' frequency response by compensating for the inductive rolloff of a basic motor, but introduce a horrible non-linear distortion problem in the midrange. Just look at the Dayton DC160-8 here:
http://www.zaphaudio.com/6.5test/
The voice coil is causing the frequency response to roll off from about 500Hz but cone breakup keeps it going smoothly until almost 2kHz. The result is horrible harmonic distortion above about 300Hz due to the all the harmonics landing on when is in reality massive cone breakup. The way to avoid this is to use a stiffer cone which breaks up higher and deal with the frequency response being less "smooth and extended" and more "roll off then peak" like the RS180 has, or have a motor where the non-linear distortion is already very very low like the Scan or SB drivers.
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The breakup in the SS is easy to deal with and cross over around 2 to 2.8kHz. Then I'm left with a woofer that does amazing bass, in a large cabinet though, easily doing 40-ish, 30-ish inroom -3 dB. Using the 18W/4531 I even get about 90 dB sensitivity.
The Dayton you mention according to PE does 65 Hz in a vented cabinet. That makes the Dayton look more like a midrange than a mid bass to me. 🙂
Hahahaha 😀 😀 😀
Sorry, but that's exactly my point, and I think what 5th Element was talking about. Still, nice to see them getting a smoother top end than I remembered, especially for about a fourth of the price of the SS.
Stepping up to the 8" Dayton slides the usable frequency downwards somewhat. F3 of 35 Hz is great, but it becomes difficult above 1kHz. This is why I have such a difficult time imagining them in a full-range two way. I guess this makes me spoiled. Great prices, sure, but the SS has the extra on both ends to make it worthwhile.
I have never heard a Dayton woofer by the way, so I am unable to talk actual listening experience.
Still, the specs on the new "naked" SB drivers are very very interesting and may blow both the Dayton's and the SS's out of the water in terms of usability.
Best,
Erik
The Dayton you mention according to PE does 65 Hz in a vented cabinet. That makes the Dayton look more like a midrange than a mid bass to me. 🙂
Hahahaha 😀 😀 😀
Sorry, but that's exactly my point, and I think what 5th Element was talking about. Still, nice to see them getting a smoother top end than I remembered, especially for about a fourth of the price of the SS.
Stepping up to the 8" Dayton slides the usable frequency downwards somewhat. F3 of 35 Hz is great, but it becomes difficult above 1kHz. This is why I have such a difficult time imagining them in a full-range two way. I guess this makes me spoiled. Great prices, sure, but the SS has the extra on both ends to make it worthwhile.
I have never heard a Dayton woofer by the way, so I am unable to talk actual listening experience.
Still, the specs on the new "naked" SB drivers are very very interesting and may blow both the Dayton's and the SS's out of the water in terms of usability.
Best,
Erik
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Its literally idiotic to compare the both you are comparing a cycle to a ferrari. Dayton cannot deliver the subtleties and nuances with very neutral as Seas or Scanspeak..