The author of the post on sighted vs blind ABX testing of the Entreq ground box vs no treatment audio files
Entreq Tellus grounding,in england - Page 37 post# 365
went on to post the following:
Entreq Tellus grounding,in england - Page 38 post#375
'OK, I did some analysis of the starting black segment. First test I did which I am not showing is comparing the captured noise between different trials. This showed some differences so even in digital domain, variations exist as expected.
I then compared the with and without Entreq in track 3. To make sure I have the same analysis applied to both, I compared the segments from 0.5 seconds to 1.5 seconds. Here is the outcome:
https://amirviews.smugmug.com/photos/i-JWDHGKG/0/XL/i-JWDHGKG-XL.png
As noted, the red graph is without Entreq. Addition of Entreq has substantially reduces harmonics of mains power at 120 and 240 Hz. The picture reverses above 500 Hz however with all the noise peaks being lower without Entreq.
So there is measurable difference. But the cause and whether it is considered an improvement requires further analysis'
Interesting.
Entreq Tellus grounding,in england - Page 37 post# 365
went on to post the following:
Entreq Tellus grounding,in england - Page 38 post#375
'OK, I did some analysis of the starting black segment. First test I did which I am not showing is comparing the captured noise between different trials. This showed some differences so even in digital domain, variations exist as expected.
I then compared the with and without Entreq in track 3. To make sure I have the same analysis applied to both, I compared the segments from 0.5 seconds to 1.5 seconds. Here is the outcome:
https://amirviews.smugmug.com/photos/i-JWDHGKG/0/XL/i-JWDHGKG-XL.png
As noted, the red graph is without Entreq. Addition of Entreq has substantially reduces harmonics of mains power at 120 and 240 Hz. The picture reverses above 500 Hz however with all the noise peaks being lower without Entreq.
So there is measurable difference. But the cause and whether it is considered an improvement requires further analysis'
Interesting.
Those 100Hz, 200Hz, etc mains lines in that graph are rectifier-produced harmonics; it's not 'mains noise' in that sense. These circulate locally in the secondary circuit.
If they are gone with some sort of box connected to earth ground, they must have had truly incompetent ground returns in that equipment.
Or luck with the cabling. Or both.
But since we have no idea how or where this is measured, it can be anything, really.
Jan
Maybe interesting for some, but there is almost always a measurable difference. The only exceptions I know of would be entirely in the digital domain.
Anybody who has any useful experience with modern audio test equipment knows that there is always a measurable difference, even for successive measurements of the same setup, or for the various channels of the same piece of equipment.
When is the last time your favorite subjective reviewer gave his sonic reactions to each of the various channels of a piece of gear with more than one channel. Trust me, in the analog domain, they all measure different and they all measure different every time you measure them.
Therefore we have thousands of pieces of evidence from subjective reviewers that modern measurements are more sensitive to changes than even the most radical of subjective reviewers.
A wide variety of measurable difference correspond to no possible audible differences.
So, the value of any measurable difference for practical purposes must be informed by their correlation with audible differences.
Furthermore, we have literally millions of pieces of evidence saying that almost all sighted evaluations are positive for audible differences. This agrees well with what is known currently about human perceptions.
A rather repetitive bandwagonesque response. I expected more. Jan's response has some substance; however as far as I am aware the Entreq is not attached to the earth ground. I don't have time to check as it's 11.30pm here.
Probable translation: It does not support certain common prejudices based on myths and blind spots.
IOW, it suggests denial of well known facts.
What's kind of tragic is that based on past experience, I didn't expect more.
For example:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/lounge/234829-funniest-snake-oil-theories-824.html#post4607817
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/lounge/234829-funniest-snake-oil-theories-822.html#post4606602
It's hard to say how the boxes are connected. I don't believe that there are any precise instructions. Some of the boxes have only one terminal some have more but they may not be connected to each other internally.
In the 17000 post thread different users connect them differently. Some may even remove the Safety Ground/Protective Earth conductor. Some use an RCA shell as the connection point (one connects to a SPDIF output).
Do foresee a time when gathering more knowledge falsifies the widespread belief that the Earth is approximately round, and provides conclusive proof that the Earth is in fact, flat?
The boring thing about truth is that it tends to be unchanging, even narrow. Hence it can seem repetitive.
Error, on the other hand, can be much more flexible and variable; there are lots of different false answers to a question and which ones get trotted out tend to be a matter of current fashion or personal preference.
Error, on the other hand, can be much more flexible and variable; there are lots of different false answers to a question and which ones get trotted out tend to be a matter of current fashion or personal preference.
Yes I know. I call the dirt a current sink because it's a pathway for the current back to the neutral of the distribution transformer. It's part of the loop. And if you conect hot to dirt current will flow thru the dirt back to the transformer. (and I guess I'm supposed to say EM waves also because curent isn't clear enough)
This is not complicated. It's a very simple circuit. Google distribution transformer grounding. And leakage current thru the ground rod is normal. Do som research!
Without reference to the full set up I would not comment, also as with all EMC tests or other test, repeat repeat repeat.
I will read the full thread time allowing as they are often interesting on that site.
I think a look at Henry Otts and Ralph Morrisons stuff for possible references as to what may be going on is required as whatever the measurements show, you cant sink current into a box on the end of a wire.
That means more investigation, so boring but absolutely necessary especially when current signal theory is in question....
In the civilised world we have something called RCDs (residual current detectors). For domestic property they are a requirement. My incoming breaker is 80A and the earth trip is 30mA which is about 68dB down . As I have no earth coming from the supplier I have a ground rod. It has 2 purposes
1. sink fault current until the RCD trips
2. Deal with electrostatic build up (and this would include stray RF pickup on an earthed case
It's impedance is many orders of magnitude larger than the neutral wire.
Luckier people have the earth coming as the sheath of the incoming feed. You still should not expect any current other than in cases 1 &2 to go down it.
NOTE: There are cases where for an audio signal it just might decide there is a lower impedance path to close the loop via PE to the wall socket and back up another power cable. This would still be the case if the earth spike was removed and no current actually flows to ground.
Types of neutral earthing in power distribution (part 1) | EEP
The ground is there for safety when something goes wrong... There is more that looks interesting, an awful lot to power distribution.
The ground is there for safety when something goes wrong... There is more that looks interesting, an awful lot to power distribution.
tetchy....
In the states, AKA GFCI. Typically applied on a per-circuit or per-outlet basis.
Required by US Electrical code for outlets near common open water sources, such as sinks and bathtubs. Also required on outlets outdoors and for every outlet within 8' of the floor in a garage.
Getting inexpensive enough to put in for every outlet.
Hidden benefit - can provide many of the benefits of a 3 wire outlet where only hot and neutral are wired. I wouldn't want to bet my life on this in every case, but it beats the #$! out of taking a shock when it does work.
We also have AFCI's which detect shorted and arcing appliances and wires by the means of analysis of the spectral content of the current flow.
Having a GFCI or AFCI for the whole house could be IME a monumental PITA. A little leakage or arcing, and down comes power for the whole place.
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