Arny, you will be pleased to note that I ordered an ABX box from Frank van Alstine.
Thanks for the heads-up!
Jan
signals do not flow like a set of cars on a train, it is a wave front that moves down the hot wire and the return simultaneously, the current is just how many jiggling electrons pass a given point in a certain time. You are looking at this from the point of view of conventional circuit theory, which does not explain the full story, but will suffice for basic circuit design.
The neutral provides a return path for 2 phase, if you use 3 phase in certain configuration you don't have a neutral wire....
Three-phase Y and Delta Configurations : Polyphase AC Circuits - Electronics Textbook
Current flows as stated many times in loops, sink, source, ground etc., are just terms used in conventional circuit theory to make it easier to design circuitry without having to worry about the underlying physics relating to the fields (E and H). the problem is because of how signal flow is often illustrated (the train carriage analogy) we view it (signal flow) as a train of electrons whizzing round the wires, thus the misunderstanding about sinking etc. A signal is not a load of electrons whizzing round wires, it is electromagnetic waves that cause the electrons to wiggle a little bit at approx. 0.1mm/s, these lethargic wiggling electrons passing a certain point is what gives us the measurable current.
Why don't you provide an answer of substance instead of just trolling comments for the believers...
Roll attack of the JC minion's, the Andrex Men🙂
As stated earlier the term GROUND is used as another name for the correct terminology RETURN PATH, it does not refer to the Ground we stand on... this is a misnomer that has filtered into electronics terminology.
Do you need the GROUND plane (or the 0V plane) for a signals return path....
NO
The return path can be another voltage plane such as say 3V3 or the adjacent wire when differential signalling is used... This is what we are trying to dispel; the GROUND myth.
Question, where is the ground on a plane or a boat?
Just don't like the term Ground or GND on circuit diagrams, prefer 0V (preferable as it is the circuits designated reference).
Good luck! If it works well and you put it to extensive use, then there are probably some very interesting adventures before you!
The plan is to use it for listening tests with audio clubs. I still have to work out how to schedule the switching with a group - probably timed rather than 'at your leisure'.
Jan
Right. In the early days of telegraphy (even before the US Civil War), the terminology used for the ground connection in the then-standard one-wire telegraph lines was "earth return". The terminology itself says that the ground spikes were there to provide a current path that was the completion of the electrical circuit.
Later on, a second wire was added to provide reliable operation in more complex systems:
http://long-lines.net/sources/att_principles_ocr.pdf
Paragraph 11.7 page 97:
"Furthermore, in order to eliminate interference
from ground potentials and crossfire and also from
power circuits, it is preferable to use a second
metallic conductor instead of an earth return, as
is done in open wire operation."
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Neutral is usually connected to ground somewhere, perhaps at the local substation (in the UK).billshurv said:
Do you really mean 'ears', as in 'just ears' or 'ears plus sight' or 'ears plus knowledge'?john curl said:
I certainly don't trust my ears; I once found that the sound from a CD player deteriorated after I read somewhere than the DAC method it used was inferior. I could definitely hear the difference, yet I was actually hearing (with my ears) exactly the same sound as before.
Interesting post in above thread relating to audibliity:
Entreq Tellus grounding,in england - Page 37
"
Given the work you put in, I thought it would only be fair that I make an attempt at trying to hear the differences between the files. I spent half hour doing this (had to walk the dogs in the middle ).
Good news. I could easily hear the difference between the entreq and no entreq files when I just played them.
Bad news. I could not remotely do that in blind ABX testing!
Here is one sample results:
foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v1.3.2
2016/02/14 08:50:25
File A: C:\Users\Amir\Documents\Test Music\Entreq 2 digital\test_4_output_entreq.wav
File B: C:\Users\Amir\Documents\Test Music\Entreq 2 digital\test_4_output_no_entreq.wav
08:50:25 : Test started.
08:52:22 : 01/01 50.0%
08:52:30 : 01/02 75.0%
08:52:43 : 02/03 50.0%
08:52:51 : 02/04 68.8%
08:53:03 : 02/05 81.3%
08:53:32 : 02/06 89.1%
08:53:58 : 03/07 77.3%
08:54:12 : 03/08 85.5%
08:54:27 : 03/09 91.0%
08:54:31 : Test finished.
----------
Total: 3/9 (91.0%) [ only 3 out of 9 answers were right with probability of guessing of 91% ]
I would play A and then B and easily "hear a difference." But then when I listened to X and Y which are the the same two but randomized, I could not at all duplicate what I was hearing in A and B. With almost no trying I could read the difference i thought was there in A and B, vote and then get told it was wrong.
So in some sense my results both agree and totally disagree with yours. Sighted I could "easily" hear differences. They were beyond obvious. But the moment the identity was taken away, my ability to identify and hear them would go away.
This is the same device and listening protocol I used to hear differences in high-res vs not, MP3 vs lossless, etc. where I generated positive results. Yet here, I cannot.
If there is a difference here, is far, far less obvious than you think. I like to see others try and see if they can find a difference in blind testing.
BTW I only listened to track 1 and 4.
"
In the US the National Electrical Code puts that connection inside the main circuit breaker panel for which there is one per home or business establishment. So, every establishment has its own ground rod(s) or equivalent (often a copper main water supply pipe). There is your connection between neutral and physical ground.
In addition, code stipulates that an additional actual physical ground rod connection to earth be provided for garages with their own breaker panels, whether in an attached or detached garage.
Agreed.
Since so much is now known about human perception and the universality of bias, anybody who ignores all that is obviously not using their brain! ;-)
Lotsa luck.
Live sound by definition involves making changes to the sound field that are clearly audible. Modern digital consoles are reliably adjustable for level and frequency response with repeatability and precision of typically 0.1 dB - so live sound operators have plenty of opportunity to correlate sound system adjustments to what they hear in terms of accurate frequency and amplitude increments.
IME it takes a channel level adjustment of about 1 dB or just a tad more to make a barely audible difference in the mix, in most situations. This may cause a < 1 dB change to the overall level of the mix.
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Post #368 is interesting further on, the views from the Guru's is becoming embedded in the believers, DBTs cause fatigue when doing critical listening, how why, what is different from sighted critical listening doesn't that cause fatigue, is it because its easier with sight as beliefs don't have to be questioned? There is rarely any true believer saying, "maybe there is no difference" its always DBT's are flawed, something went wrong, I couldn't see which way the arrows were on the cable.
Back in the day our group broke some meetings down into two parts. First a lecture first about the need for DBTs and in later meetings results of the previous one and how we proposed to do the next one, and then aprt two which was group and solo DBTs related to some issue in audio.
Key was finding some true believer in the issue that was being investigated to be the issue's proponent.
Ultimately, we ran out of proponents for common issues like amp and digital player audible differences.
It's complex in the UK. Not read the wiring regs for a long time, but they do keep changing it.
Earthing Types - DIYWiki
My place is TT, so 2 wires from the transformer (overhead) and an earth stake in the mint patch. Not fond of overhead lines, my last house was forever tripping the RCD, but once you accept that earth is to save your life and neutral is to return signals to I stopped worrying. I blame Ben Duncan and all his articles on grounding.
I find that if your criteria for the validity of DBTs is hearing differences, then be sure to listen to a comparison that involves differences that can be heard.
Most subjectivists run right out and compare things that anybody who understands the thresholds of audibility and equipment performance, would say is impossible.
Listening and actually hearing small differences that are still audible is a skill, and years of sighted evaluations are unlikely to teach one that skill.
One should start out with DBTs based on a rational training program - start out with easy comparisons such as a few dB level difference or a number of percent THD, and work up to tough problems.
How many people succeed at learning weight lifting by starting out with 600 pound bench presses?
As a rule, most DBT haters never actually gave themselves or the system a chance - they pulled a Kruger-Dunning and immediately tried to hear infinitesimal differences for their first attempt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
(1) Because we are almost all educated to believe that the world is round.
(2) Because a clean, representative observation provides evidence that the earth is not flat.
Almost any direct personal observation (e.g. made out the window of my house or down my street) is not a clean representative observation, and I know it. There we see a flat earth.
What is seen from 30,000 feet plus in an airplane is one of those clean representative observations, and on a clear day the curvature is pretty obvious.
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