Because of the tooling, I can only make waveguides molded into baffles. There has never been any reason that someone could not just simply remove the waveguide from the baffle, so I have to assume that stand alone waveguides are just not that interesting to people. I only plan to make Abbey baffles for another few months and then I am going to discard that tooling.
I could remake the tooling to allow for a stand alone waveguide, but I still don't think that there would be much interest in this in the marketplace, and new tooling costs money.
I could remake the tooling to allow for a stand alone waveguide, but I still don't think that there would be much interest in this in the marketplace, and new tooling costs money.
If you have any questions feel free to throw them out there in any of my threads. Really my construction method up to this point has been pretty archaic. Going forward I might be able to have some part of my molds machined.
I believe Earl's math figures in the "3d dimension", but as the math is over my head I'll take his word for it that the OS is the lowest diffraction constant directivity profile. He gave us the recipe, and designing the thing is fairly simple.....if you have CAD.
Earl, doesn't a fair amount of claimed horn "efficiency" also arise from the constrained radiation pattern (squeezing same amount of watts over a smaller area)?
I see "high-end" many-way horn speakers, claiming >110dBSPL/1w/1m in show reports with narrow beamy-looking horns on most of the drivers.....
I see "high-end" many-way horn speakers, claiming >110dBSPL/1w/1m in show reports with narrow beamy-looking horns on most of the drivers.....
Hi Bill - the narrowing of the radiation pattern is basically the reason for the higher efficiency. There isn't much more narrowing at HFs and there isn't much efficiency gain either. I can't speak to 110 dB SPL/1 w /1m since I have never even come close to that in anything that I have measured.
I suppose that there might be some gain due to directivity since the physics of the waveguide speaks only to the power delivered at the mouth of the device. If this power gets distributed more narrowly then yes there could be some added gain. But not on the order of 6 dB or so. I would suspect it more like 3 dB at most.
In my waveguides the response > 10 kHz is basically the same level as the passband response of the woofer (i.e. the crossover has 0 dB attenuation that high,) and yet, as rated on the spec sheets, the compression driver is some 12 dB higher. Its all in the way one looks at things.
PS: I can also see things going the other way, a waveguide reducing the SPL level. It is known that a waveguide has a wider directivity than a piston of the same size as the throat, and that at the upper freqs the efficiency of the waveguide is one (0 dB). Spread this over a wider directivity and the SPL will actually fall for the waveguide when compared to the same source without a waveguide. Maybe that's why I see such low levels of output > 10 kHz in my own devices.
I suppose that there might be some gain due to directivity since the physics of the waveguide speaks only to the power delivered at the mouth of the device. If this power gets distributed more narrowly then yes there could be some added gain. But not on the order of 6 dB or so. I would suspect it more like 3 dB at most.
In my waveguides the response > 10 kHz is basically the same level as the passband response of the woofer (i.e. the crossover has 0 dB attenuation that high,) and yet, as rated on the spec sheets, the compression driver is some 12 dB higher. Its all in the way one looks at things.
PS: I can also see things going the other way, a waveguide reducing the SPL level. It is known that a waveguide has a wider directivity than a piston of the same size as the throat, and that at the upper freqs the efficiency of the waveguide is one (0 dB). Spread this over a wider directivity and the SPL will actually fall for the waveguide when compared to the same source without a waveguide. Maybe that's why I see such low levels of output > 10 kHz in my own devices.
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so many unanswered questions.
apparently distortion in horns is an unsolvable problem that is just fact of the matter i guess.
apparently distortion in horns is an unsolvable problem that is just fact of the matter i guess.
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If that's your take-away from this thread then maybe its best that you continue to believe it.
PS - my waveguides do not have audible distortion.
PS - my waveguides do not have audible distortion.
Horn haters are everywhere. 😉 A good cure for them is to make them work with horns and get it right. Sometimes that's the only way to get the light bulb to turn on.
not a hater just coming to terms with the limitations of the device type.
if it were not for horns much of my career as a soundman would have been far more difficult.
if it were not for horns much of my career as a soundman would have been far more difficult.
Pano - as I said before, some of the worst speakers that I have ever heard were horns. You have to hear a good one before you can believe that they don't always sound so bad.
Yes Earl, my ears have been hurt more by horns than just about anything else. And I'm not talking about Kenny G! 😀
I read and hear so much about how bad horns are that it get tiresome. Most people will rant about them, then admit they've only heard them in P.A.s and paging systems. Well, yes, of course. And I have heard some awful horns at Hi-Fi shows, to be honest.
When I've had people drop by to hear my horn systems I always ask "How bad was the horn sound?" or "Did the horn honk bother you?" "Where the horns too forward?" These questions are always met with blank stares. They simply didn't hear the horns, so don't understand the question. Some further inquiry can usually lead to admissions that they were frightened upon first seeing the system, but quickly forgot all about it.
And I don't think my horn systems are nearly the best I've heard. There are some very nice systems out there.
I don't really blame the haters and naysayers, they've had their ears assaulted as much as we have.
I read and hear so much about how bad horns are that it get tiresome. Most people will rant about them, then admit they've only heard them in P.A.s and paging systems. Well, yes, of course. And I have heard some awful horns at Hi-Fi shows, to be honest.
When I've had people drop by to hear my horn systems I always ask "How bad was the horn sound?" or "Did the horn honk bother you?" "Where the horns too forward?" These questions are always met with blank stares. They simply didn't hear the horns, so don't understand the question. Some further inquiry can usually lead to admissions that they were frightened upon first seeing the system, but quickly forgot all about it.
And I don't think my horn systems are nearly the best I've heard. There are some very nice systems out there.
I don't really blame the haters and naysayers, they've had their ears assaulted as much as we have.
i've heard horn systems sound sublime but i can still tell they're horns and i guess that's why i wonder if anything can be done to improve them further.
but it seems all i get is derision for doing so.
but it seems all i get is derision for doing so.
Not derision, it's just been pointed out that what you are saying doesn't make sense. Your terms are too broad, your statements and questions too general.
As to "I can still tell they're horns" - is that sighted, or blind? I know a few people personally and on this forum who are so biased, no horn system stands a chance in a sighted test. Some will admit that. And conversely, can you hear sublime systems and still tell they are cones? I often can, but I'm probably cheating by looking. 😉
As to "I can still tell they're horns" - is that sighted, or blind? I know a few people personally and on this forum who are so biased, no horn system stands a chance in a sighted test. Some will admit that. And conversely, can you hear sublime systems and still tell they are cones? I often can, but I'm probably cheating by looking. 😉
Turk - the "derision" is because as much as we try and explain to you what can be done, you just keep coming back with "apparently distortion in horns is an unsolvable problem that is just fact of the matter". As PMA suggests, perhaps I ought to just ignore all your comments.
Funny. To me there are far more good horns than good direct speakers, but I am in Mississippi and we grew up with Keele style electro voice horns via way of Jon Gilliom then Jon Risch Charly Hughes and probably Earl Geddes so we never suffered. Been making hifi speakers from SP 1, 2 , 3 since the 70s
Plenty of 511 and 811s in use here too. Horns, a good thing. Only bad one I ever lived with
is Khorn mid in fact.
Plenty of 511 and 811s in use here too. Horns, a good thing. Only bad one I ever lived with
is Khorn mid in fact.
Ditto here.
Has anyone here ever heard the old Radio Shack electrostatic tweeters? Yes, electrostatics can also absolutely suck!
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