the amp in my old power station powered mixer is wimpy low power has no limiter / compressor clips nasty when passed and weighs a ton .
The rest of the mixer is great warm Brit pres lex efx etc . Any chance I could remover the heavy amp & PS ? add internally or externally a modern light weight switching amp with more power protection ?
Thanks
Kt
The rest of the mixer is great warm Brit pres lex efx etc . Any chance I could remover the heavy amp & PS ? add internally or externally a modern light weight switching amp with more power protection ?
Thanks
Kt
Yes.. but you could also just make it a passive mixer and lighten your load. Amps belong inside speakers IMO.
removing the amp and power supply would require you to replace the transformer and regulator section so you can still supply the mixer. a bit of a challenge but not completely unfeasible.
what would you consider adequate power in terms of an amp? any uprating in wattage would require larger heatsinks so external amps are probably a better solution.
what would you consider adequate power in terms of an amp? any uprating in wattage would require larger heatsinks so external amps are probably a better solution.
Hi Kevin,
Hi conanski,
Why would you put amplifiers in a position with the highest vibration ??? ! Ever seen shattered component leads and broken solder connections? The only place worse than this (except in the water) would be under a bunch of pillows to cut off ventilation.
-Chris
Aaaah, no. Please do not follow this advice.
Hi conanski,
Why would you put amplifiers in a position with the highest vibration ??? ! Ever seen shattered component leads and broken solder connections? The only place worse than this (except in the water) would be under a bunch of pillows to cut off ventilation.
-Chris
anatech
i gather you view all powered speakers as a bad idea.most i've worked with all seem to work well even with the additional abuse of transportation.
shattered component leads?
i gather you view all powered speakers as a bad idea.most i've worked with all seem to work well even with the additional abuse of transportation.
shattered component leads?
Hi turk 182,
While doing service, I got more plate amps and car amps that there should have been.
-Chris
Yup. It doesn't make any sense to subject any circuit to that type of abuse.
The failure rate for speaker mounted amplifiers is a lot higher than ones in a box. I guess in DJ work, amps die at a fantastic rate which levels the playing field.
While doing service, I got more plate amps and car amps that there should have been.
Absolutely! Larger components like power resistors can have this failure mode. But cracked solder connections lead the pack in failures. Vibration tests are considered abuse to electronic circuits, so this test method can be used by aircraft manufacturers and Industrial. The military takes this a bit further with their testing.
-Chris
Shattered component leads on a cheap plate amp. There is a world (galaxy?) of difference between one of those Speaker Power OEM units and a $150 Dayton plate amp. Good ones don't mount the electronics inside the speaker's air chamber (they more or less mount on the back of the speaker cab), use mostly all SMD technology, and epoxy anything that can move down solidly. You pay for that. And good speakers are rigidly braced to minimize panel vibrations. Sure, the cheap $199 powered speakers are nothing more than a flexy cheap PCB stuck inside a speaker cab with a heatsink stuck out a hole in the back, but those aren't the ones conanski and turk are using.
Hi wg_ski,
Even if you use a product that has been made to withstand vibration better, it would still last longer in a rack compared to speaker mounting. Its a fact of physics that if you vibrate something over a long period of time, it will break before one mounted in a lower vibration setting.
If you can avoid a problem in the future, why wouldn't you?
-Chris
Doesn't sound like anything made for speaker mounting to me. No where have they appeared to have selected a vibration proof design either. Plus, don't we all love to carry bulky objects that have a series of blades hanging out the back?
Even if you use a product that has been made to withstand vibration better, it would still last longer in a rack compared to speaker mounting. Its a fact of physics that if you vibrate something over a long period of time, it will break before one mounted in a lower vibration setting.
If you can avoid a problem in the future, why wouldn't you?
-Chris
if it can't handle vibration from speakers it certainly will die or fail from transportation, so much for getting the product from the factory to the end user
i'd like to know where this statistic comes from.
abuse of gear is not confined to DJ's (nor is that a slight to DJ's)
again abuse of product is more prevalent to failure (car audio amps are all too often pushed beyond limits and frequently miswired.)
from a service/sales perspective this is a good thing
shattered? i would have to see this for myself.
i agree with this 100%
Question: where does it say he wants to mount the amp on the speakers?
I'd expect the transformer to have two pairs of secondaries, one +/-40v, the other +/-12v. The higher voltage one will just feed the power amp, with the lower one being for op-amps etc. If that's the case, I'd just throw a 30VA +/-12v transformer in there, take out heatsinks (and anything else power-amp-related and heavy) and call it good.
Chris
after years of lugging heavy amp racks clear across the country i for one like powered speakers.
no one suggested the OP transplant the amp from the powerstation into his speakers.
no one suggested the OP transplant the amp from the powerstation into his speakers.
Okay, before everyone gets too far along here ...
I was responding to a comment made by conanski near the beginning. Nothing more, nothing less. It seems some of you have taken up a charge without really reading from the beginning of the thread carefully. You missed where the idea of mounting amps inside speakers originated from. Chris, this applies to you as well.
Turk, I can't argue against your personal preference. I am merely pointing out technical issues. By all means, move your gear like that and enjoy.
Equipment abused in that way shows heat damage that accumulates over time. Failure due to vibration is very distinct. Fractures occur with much less heat damage, the leads or broken solder connections tending to have sharp edges. This is a slow failure that also occurs over time, nothing dramatic is happening. Cracks propagate slowly through the material until the connected material falls below the strength it needs to withstand the forces applied it simply separates. Don't forget that resonant motion can apply much higher force than you would expect.
Broken solder connections lead the pack due to the lower strength solder has, but this failure is the result of exactly the same forces that can fracture a component lead. Most often the solder connection will fail - protecting the lead or component itself. Do you want to see a shattered lead for yourself? Hang out with someone who repairs car amplifiers as this is the same thing but exaggerated. That technician may have seen this problem before.
-Chris
I was responding to a comment made by conanski near the beginning. Nothing more, nothing less. It seems some of you have taken up a charge without really reading from the beginning of the thread carefully. You missed where the idea of mounting amps inside speakers originated from. Chris, this applies to you as well.
Turk, I can't argue against your personal preference. I am merely pointing out technical issues. By all means, move your gear like that and enjoy.
This isn't true at all. Shipping vibration is low, low frequency at lower amplitudes. When electronic devices are mounted in a speaker enclosure (separated from the actual volume for the woofer box), they are subjected to frequencies that excite each components resonating point. The leads may fracture above the board, or right at the solder. This is sometimes very difficult to find.
Look at any failure rate curve from any component study. This will be found in application notes for equipment designed for military, space or industrial use. For components, you might see expected stress limits on the parts leads. For practical observations, it's in the day to day work load. I did MI service too, so amp racks and individual amplifiers as well. Including car amplifiers commonly mounted to speaker boxes, which is an accelerated stress test. There is no one study I have come across dealing with this, but I am positive they exist. The lead failures come about as metal fatigue, not anything dramatic. When you see a component lead broken on a diagonal leaving sharp edges in some cases, you have found an example of metal fatigue.
No, but that vocation is exposed to more misinformation and attempts to use the least appropriate equipment in an attempt to do things cheaply. You should have seen the warranty claims that we had to turn down due to abuse. A DJ is more likely to pack gear into a portable rack without ventilation than any other industry. I wish there were "DJ" schools out there.
Equipment abused in that way shows heat damage that accumulates over time. Failure due to vibration is very distinct. Fractures occur with much less heat damage, the leads or broken solder connections tending to have sharp edges. This is a slow failure that also occurs over time, nothing dramatic is happening. Cracks propagate slowly through the material until the connected material falls below the strength it needs to withstand the forces applied it simply separates. Don't forget that resonant motion can apply much higher force than you would expect.
Broken solder connections lead the pack due to the lower strength solder has, but this failure is the result of exactly the same forces that can fracture a component lead. Most often the solder connection will fail - protecting the lead or component itself. Do you want to see a shattered lead for yourself? Hang out with someone who repairs car amplifiers as this is the same thing but exaggerated. That technician may have seen this problem before.
-Chris
ok you seem to know better.
but after 30 odd years of packing pro audio gear in a semi (air ride trucks too i might add) and hauling it across the country and 20 plus years in the service biz (pro audio,consumer,industrial instrumentation) i beg to differ, transport vibration and shock far exceed vibration in use,amplifier failures can happen in milliseconds no heat required.
much of the broken leads and cracked solder joints you speak of are the result of mechanical stress and chemical contamination (improper flux removal can lead to erosion) and not from vibration borne sources but meh that's just my opinion so don't fret.
but after 30 odd years of packing pro audio gear in a semi (air ride trucks too i might add) and hauling it across the country and 20 plus years in the service biz (pro audio,consumer,industrial instrumentation) i beg to differ, transport vibration and shock far exceed vibration in use,amplifier failures can happen in milliseconds no heat required.
much of the broken leads and cracked solder joints you speak of are the result of mechanical stress and chemical contamination (improper flux removal can lead to erosion) and not from vibration borne sources but meh that's just my opinion so don't fret.
It was implied that since the amp is insufficient and doesn't have good protection systems he ought to consider just using powered speakers and not using the original amp. A well-designed powered speaker would have the features he's lacking and not be any harder to hook up.
Most of the electronic failures I've seen on PA gear happen from things being *dropped*, not from just riding on a truck. The banging around on each end of the ride accumulates more stress than the ride itself. Unfortunately, it's inevitable.
Most of the failures I've seen on powered HT subs come from heat stress and solder joint failures. The vibrations on those crappy boards does cause metal fatigue. Heat stress from being inside a sealed airspace doesn't help the situation. An oxidized solder joint (from a 2 watt resistor running at 1.5 watts for months with no airflow) will crack a LOT easier than a clean one. Those products are just not built to the same standards as say, a QSC K-series.
DJs get their bad rep from trying to get the rave experience out of a system appropriate for a four piece folk rock band in a small club. Use a system appropriate for a rave and you don't have to abuse it. When it takes 6 guys and three trucks to move it, blame it on Mr. Hoffman.
Putting just the right amount of engineering into just the right places and you can get a happy medium - something you can bass out with and clip the bejeezus out of when you need to - without ever blowing a driver or amp. But you still won't be able to fit it into an Accord or Camry, and it will cost more than $1k.
Hi wg_ski,
I have to agree with you there. That, plus they always want their stuff fixed for less than cost. Very few understand how to run their business like a business.
-Chris
I have to agree with you there. That, plus they always want their stuff fixed for less than cost. Very few understand how to run their business like a business.
-Chris
Absolutely confirmed.
I do not do a lot of PA, but I do industrial electronics from a life.
I have seen several cases of broken leaads of big, heavy or power components.
My take is that the rupture happens because of metal fatigue, and where there is is some kind of stress either mechanical (where the pin was bent, or it is more free to vibrate) or thermal (where it is subject to many heat/cool cycles). I concour that setting a power amp inside a speaker cabinet, while it can be seen as handy on the wiring side, is a bad idea on the reliability part.
I think powered speakers are being painted with too broad a brush. To say powered speakers have higher failure rates overlooks the fact that any speaker failures and any amplifier failures are lumped into the same statistic. If we lump passive speaker failures AND electronic failures in separate amplifiers, the field evens out a lot. We can't just speak of powered speakers as if they were all the same. Cheap 3/8" particle board cabinets, covered in carpet, with three piezos across the top and a cheap plate amp slapped on the rear and sold to innocent DJs who don't know any better, are nothing like professional powered speakers.
I tend to discount cheap plate amps from this, as the discussion is about pro audio PA systems. Look at the original, the JBL Eon series, or something more recent like a MAckie SRM450. There are no fins sticking out the back. They are sturdy.
In the aforementioned JBL Eons, I think the most common failure in them for me has been failed main rectifier bridges, not connections.
I tend to discount cheap plate amps from this, as the discussion is about pro audio PA systems. Look at the original, the JBL Eon series, or something more recent like a MAckie SRM450. There are no fins sticking out the back. They are sturdy.
In the aforementioned JBL Eons, I think the most common failure in them for me has been failed main rectifier bridges, not connections.
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