I'm searching for a lower end solution that will deliver relatively clean, undistorted low end with authority from 30Hz to 100Hz in a pro audio environment. As an up and coming local DJ I want to seriously set myself apart from all of the goofballs who play crappy music through sub par systems and parade around on a massive ego trip. Their performances erk me, and I know that in the dubstep and D&B genre that I need serious low end if I'm going to be a serious contender.
SO, thanks to you guys so far I am onto the tapped horns, my specifically I've found out about the OThorn.
At a 3'x3'x2' package with a single unit capable of pounding out 30Hz through 100hz @ 125dB +/-2db I think I have found a sound solution. I really do not want to, much less have the skill to, spends days modeling horns and drivers not to mention coming up with a construction template when it has already been done by a competent designer and has been proven.
I may use the PRV21SW4000 in lieu of the B&C 21SW125-4 but I need to figure out HornResp first before I can make a serious decision on whether or not to go with an un proven driver with shaky specifications ( there are 2 or 3 different sets of specs floating around the internet, which is cause for concern. The only reason I am considering this is that the PRV driver has a lower free air extension and this may equate to a little more potent sub bass (30hz-50hz) output, but I am not sure.
I also was originally considering a line array main but alas after a good hazing and some re-digesting of widely available information on line array's I feel i need to shelve that idea until a later date. not only due to complexity of equipment and each set up requiring it's own tweaking but because it would push the budget pretty hard and I still need to save for professional level lighting and trusses.
I'm looking over the options and could use some input, see page 2 .
Thanks for the help!
-Zphere
SO, thanks to you guys so far I am onto the tapped horns, my specifically I've found out about the OThorn.
At a 3'x3'x2' package with a single unit capable of pounding out 30Hz through 100hz @ 125dB +/-2db I think I have found a sound solution. I really do not want to, much less have the skill to, spends days modeling horns and drivers not to mention coming up with a construction template when it has already been done by a competent designer and has been proven.
I may use the PRV21SW4000 in lieu of the B&C 21SW125-4 but I need to figure out HornResp first before I can make a serious decision on whether or not to go with an un proven driver with shaky specifications ( there are 2 or 3 different sets of specs floating around the internet, which is cause for concern. The only reason I am considering this is that the PRV driver has a lower free air extension and this may equate to a little more potent sub bass (30hz-50hz) output, but I am not sure.
I also was originally considering a line array main but alas after a good hazing and some re-digesting of widely available information on line array's I feel i need to shelve that idea until a later date. not only due to complexity of equipment and each set up requiring it's own tweaking but because it would push the budget pretty hard and I still need to save for professional level lighting and trusses.
I'm looking over the options and could use some input, see page 2 .
Thanks for the help!
-Zphere
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i'm waiting to see how he's gonna load all those cabs onto so few amps without problems...
and seeing as he's pretty much decided that BR is the way to go i don't think he'll respond favorably to suggestions of different designs for enclosures!
maybe finding some used FH 1 enclosures will satisfy his Peavey fetish!
and seeing as he's pretty much decided that BR is the way to go i don't think he'll respond favorably to suggestions of different designs for enclosures!
maybe finding some used FH 1 enclosures will satisfy his Peavey fetish!
So you want to play with magic? Boy you should know what you're fallin for.
Once you go down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.
Consider very carefully what you're doing. Hang out here a while and find out how to make real bass. Then proceed with a deisgn. If you still dare.
Once you go down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.
Consider very carefully what you're doing. Hang out here a while and find out how to make real bass. Then proceed with a deisgn. If you still dare.
18" THs, 30Hz tuned, and as many of the best 18"s you can obtain.
You want to be able to hit each driver with 2-3kW. You want RMS and peak limiting.
Double-18" ported cabs are old-hat. Modern drivers in well-designed 1x18" THs will do the same output on about half the power.
Also, don't even consider putting any power in at the cabinet's -10dB point. Run some simulations - it doesn't end well.
Chris
You want to be able to hit each driver with 2-3kW. You want RMS and peak limiting.
Double-18" ported cabs are old-hat. Modern drivers in well-designed 1x18" THs will do the same output on about half the power.
Also, don't even consider putting any power in at the cabinet's -10dB point. Run some simulations - it doesn't end well.
Chris
Where there goes all your SQ out the window. Are you ready for your first hard lesson, to get a line array to sound even half decent every single driver needs to have it's own amp channel AND.. yes that is a very big "and" and it was on purpose... every single driver needs to have it's own custom DSP processing applied. So yeah after you get it all built you can expect to spend many many hours with a lot of test equipment dialing it in, passive crossovers and bulk powering simply will not do here.
if only the veils would part and the deep desires of every neophite could be granted just for the asking.
the audio muse can be cruel to the uninitiated.
the audio muse can be cruel to the uninitiated.
As i said, i am not set in stone in any of my choices. I am concerned about the quality of the amps as well and have been reading up in a lot of different options.
Forgive my ignorance, but is TH short for tuned horns? If so I am not against such a thing. Just not my forte' as far as knowledgability, at least not yet.
Where then should i begin digging on this matter?
This is what I was afraid of, and is the reason i am here, to learn 🙂
What then is your suggestion for mains?
I truly do appreciate all input, regardleas if it ia only to mock my ignorance, i am here to learn and as stated ultimately build something serious.
Thanks,
Zphere
we'll consider your newbie hazing as almost over...
TH stands for "tapped horn"
i think your understanding of "line array" is a little fuzzy but that can be cleared up later.
finding a sub design that's going to give/deliver on your expectations is the bane of most rig builders. in a good many cases by the time you find a cab that gives you what you want it's to big to fit in the truck or it's too heavy to move for one person or requires too many multiples to be cost effective.
the other thing is finding a crossover or system controller to make all this work in joyous harmony.
TH stands for "tapped horn"
i think your understanding of "line array" is a little fuzzy but that can be cleared up later.
finding a sub design that's going to give/deliver on your expectations is the bane of most rig builders. in a good many cases by the time you find a cab that gives you what you want it's to big to fit in the truck or it's too heavy to move for one person or requires too many multiples to be cost effective.
the other thing is finding a crossover or system controller to make all this work in joyous harmony.
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Roger dodger. Tapped horn.
My underatanding was that once the height of the line array exceeds a set wavelegnth it projects sound in a tube like fashion. However i havent re read any material in a few weeks. Ill need to dig back into that.
I was never against horna, just that I dont know enough about them to make informed choices. I actually love the look of horns .😎
Fortunately, I am in very good physical condition and also have my brother as help to set up once things are aet in motion. With that said, While im not trying to break my back I am perfectly fine with lugging around multiple larger/heavier enclosures if it means meeting my needs.
Speaking of needs, i want to reiterate. Im looking to produce low end down to ~30Hz with authority (>130db). I also want to move air as well so in my mind im looking at at least 4 drivers. Total budget for amplifiers, drivers and materiala is around 15k. I would aay more but i also nees to put aside money for decenta lighting, racks, trusses, etc.
Once again,
thank you,
Zphere
So the very first question you need to ask is how much SPACE are you willing to allocate to woofage? Consider everything - storage, transport, and setup. A full size array of front loaded (conventional) horn subs will give you the most bass per dollar at a cost of the most space. To get in the 30's requires big boxes - 20 to 40 cubic feet - each - and you need more than one. They are "less modular" as they won't work as well in onesey twosies. Tapped horns are a good compromise as they can be made smaller and the system is scaleable. They are still large to get down in the 30's but are one-person manageable. Regular ported boxes require more of them and 4-6X the amp power to get comparable levels. Only really consider that if space and weight are at a premium and you can afford to throw money at it to save on those. For your music, 40 Hz isn't really low enough - 35 is and 30 is better. But all that comes at the cost of space, watts, and more total displacement. You need to decide where to cry 'uncle'. Research the different TH designs posted here to get a clear idea of what you're up against BEFORE spending a dime. And learn Hornresp - yesterday. Then you'll be like the rest of us - running endless sims, dreaming and scheming, and generally wasting a lot of time 🙂.
You could certainly build line array mains. A single element could consist of a 12" woofer, two 6" mids, and a 12x12" 90x40 horn with tweeter driver. And then tri-amp it. "Mr. Mile" (Apex) has posted several concept designs that actually look promising but would require refinement. Right out of the box, the results will likely be disappointing - it will lack the pattern control of a modern line array where each driver has individual signal processing. But it would still sound better than just throwing a bunch of random cabs on top of the subs and praying to the bass gods like so many of them do. There are however, plenty of other options to a compromised line array. You'll find those designs here too.
This system is pretty old school, but is likely about the size and output of what you're looking for. Blows the budget by a bit though (in the 20k neighborhood). A more modern system is in the works, but I'm in no immediate hurry.
You could certainly build line array mains. A single element could consist of a 12" woofer, two 6" mids, and a 12x12" 90x40 horn with tweeter driver. And then tri-amp it. "Mr. Mile" (Apex) has posted several concept designs that actually look promising but would require refinement. Right out of the box, the results will likely be disappointing - it will lack the pattern control of a modern line array where each driver has individual signal processing. But it would still sound better than just throwing a bunch of random cabs on top of the subs and praying to the bass gods like so many of them do. There are however, plenty of other options to a compromised line array. You'll find those designs here too.
This system is pretty old school, but is likely about the size and output of what you're looking for. Blows the budget by a bit though (in the 20k neighborhood). A more modern system is in the works, but I'm in no immediate hurry.
Attachments
Read everything you can find on Tom Danley, and his systems, Danley Loudspeakers | Danley Sounds Labs | Danley Sound Labs, Inc. Then read everything on http://www.billfitzmaurice.com. They either buy one, clone one, or build one. Your only hope for success straight out of the gate is to go with a tried and tested design. Otherwise I'm afraid you will be very sorry to find out how fast you can loose $15000 and end up with less than stellar sound.
I would really avoid the Bill Fitzmaurice stuff. There's people coming back saying the boxes don't perform to spec - IIRC some of the measurements on the website are taken under very favourable conditions. At best, they're undersized FLHs, and we can all design those.
I'm not convinced of the need for any kind of line array for the things you're looking at. I'd probably go for some mid-highs with ~40 degree horizontal dispersion, and then array them horizontally to get the coverage you want.
You want 130dB@30Hz at what distance? 1m from the cabinets? 10?
A very very good 18" TH will manage that at 1m, though you'd need four to get 130dB at 10m. You're looking at using the very best drivers you can get - nothing cheap will manage it.
Chris
I'm not convinced of the need for any kind of line array for the things you're looking at. I'd probably go for some mid-highs with ~40 degree horizontal dispersion, and then array them horizontally to get the coverage you want.
You want 130dB@30Hz at what distance? 1m from the cabinets? 10?
A very very good 18" TH will manage that at 1m, though you'd need four to get 130dB at 10m. You're looking at using the very best drivers you can get - nothing cheap will manage it.
Chris
Honestly, I haven't set a definite limit on that, I guess right now I would like to keep the cabs at or under 200lbs and need to retain to ability to fit through doors.
This is why I haven't had horn loaded subs at the forefront of my considerations, the efficiency is awesome but when it takes cabs that large to push the envelope red flags start popping up in terms of mobility.
However, the tapped horns seem to be a solid compromise.
Why I do agree with everything you have said I really need to be able to reach 30Hz accurately so that is priority number #1 with size and other variables coming second. Also, of note, what about response above 100Hz ? A lot of response charts I've seen look like aroller coaster frequency wise and that is cause for concern.
I would say 30Hz@130dB at ~5m would be my criteria, thanks for calling me out on that key bit of information. I don't dont the math but I know that would equate to some serious output at 1m.
The Tuba 45 seems interesting. I know it is a tried and true design but is it possible/plausible to scale it up for use with a 15" or even 18" driver?
Kind of like the TM118 ?
Also, what about retrofitting theTUBA HT with a pro sound 15" driver?
Speaking of, where do I start with determing (specification wise) which drivers are worth considering for tapped horns and which are not?
thanks,
Zphere
EDIT: How suitable would the PRV 21SW4000 be for a tapped horn application?
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Leave it to me to draft an articulated and thorough response only to hit f5 and loose it all!
Anyways, in short a few things stand out to me.
Obviously the included response chart in with room modes and not applicable to the use I intend but what about retrofitting the Tuba HT with a pro audio driver?
Of course the TUBA 60 looks like a solid option as well. Although I would probably like to build the exterior most bracing with a curve for aesthetics. With a 60"x30" foot print it isn't small but certainly managable.
Last, but not least how about cloning the the TM221 ?
Something about two 21" drivers per cabinet just makes my shudder. Even a downside to two 18" drivers could be the means that I require for visceral bass.
Now, what specifications should i bare in mind when looking at drivers with respect to their application for a tapped horn design?
Is there a FAQ in regards to tapped horn design?
EDIT: HOW about the PRV 21sw4000 for a tapped horn?
OR THIS?
Thanks,
Zphere
Anyways, in short a few things stand out to me.
Obviously the included response chart in with room modes and not applicable to the use I intend but what about retrofitting the Tuba HT with a pro audio driver?
Of course the TUBA 60 looks like a solid option as well. Although I would probably like to build the exterior most bracing with a curve for aesthetics. With a 60"x30" foot print it isn't small but certainly managable.
Last, but not least how about cloning the the TM221 ?
Something about two 21" drivers per cabinet just makes my shudder. Even a downside to two 18" drivers could be the means that I require for visceral bass.
Now, what specifications should i bare in mind when looking at drivers with respect to their application for a tapped horn design?
Is there a FAQ in regards to tapped horn design?
EDIT: HOW about the PRV 21sw4000 for a tapped horn?
OR THIS?
Thanks,
Zphere
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The BFM cabinets are usually FLHs - front loaded horns. These need multiples in the stack to flatten off the downwards sloping response. You ought to be looking at 6 per side.
Tapped horns will do about the same thing used alone or stacked, so long as the stack isn't so large as to provide directivity (the effects of that will be the same for any cabinet, so we won't worry about it yet).
You have to be careful with 21" drivers. Some will stand high-power TH use, others will shred. B&C makes a known good one. 18" drivers aren't as risky - shorter levers etc mean the cone won't fold as easily.
IMO, your best bet is still something like a B&C 18SW115 (or -152) in a 30Hz tapped horn. Take the 4ohm drivers and bridge a powerful amp into each cabinet. You might get away with something 5kW capable bridged into a pair of 8ohm drivers. The Faital Pro driver you mentioned earlier is of similar ilk, and would also do the job. RCF, Beyma and others do similar drivers, so it might be worth checking out the 2nd hand market to see hat you can get cheaply.
Chris
Tapped horns will do about the same thing used alone or stacked, so long as the stack isn't so large as to provide directivity (the effects of that will be the same for any cabinet, so we won't worry about it yet).
You have to be careful with 21" drivers. Some will stand high-power TH use, others will shred. B&C makes a known good one. 18" drivers aren't as risky - shorter levers etc mean the cone won't fold as easily.
IMO, your best bet is still something like a B&C 18SW115 (or -152) in a 30Hz tapped horn. Take the 4ohm drivers and bridge a powerful amp into each cabinet. You might get away with something 5kW capable bridged into a pair of 8ohm drivers. The Faital Pro driver you mentioned earlier is of similar ilk, and would also do the job. RCF, Beyma and others do similar drivers, so it might be worth checking out the 2nd hand market to see hat you can get cheaply.
Chris
I see you found a horn you like. If you do end up trying out the PRV be sure to give us a report - there have been several sets of specs on that one floating around and I'm not sure what to believe. The B&C is only $100 more and is a sure thing so that may be moot.
Any more thoughts as to the mains, or is it too early to tell what you really want yet?
Any more thoughts as to the mains, or is it too early to tell what you really want yet?
Yeah, a single Othorn is only 36"x36x24" and with the B&C 21SW152-4 driver is capable of sustained 125dB output (+/- 2dB) from 30Hz all the way to 90Hz before that horn harmonics bump the out put to >130dB over 100Hz. I'm thinking I'll build 2 at a time (never constructed a horn so I'm bound to mess up some cuts) and as my needs increased I'll build more.
I was considering the PRV driver because it seems to have a lower free air extension and according the manufacturer's specs the PRV's Thiele-Small parameters are close to the B&C 21SW125-4 except for QMS and impedance.
I'm STRUGGLING with Hornresp right now or I would model the Othorn specs with this driver and have a better idea, if anyone wouldn't mind doing that it would save me alot of headache, I'm going through the read me and while the program is intuitive it is taking me time to wrap my head around everything.
After rereading some Line Array Theory and seeing the expense that goes into I've decided I need to shelve that thought until later date when I understand the physics of sounds reproduction and loudspeaker design better.
I had the childish thought of building sealed 2-way mains to keep transient response in check using 2 Dayton PA460 18" woofers crossed digitally @ 2kHz into a Selenium D220Ti horn driver, and probably couple that to a 100 degree x 40 degree horn.
It would be simple and the sheer amount of Sd from 2 18"s per main would provide plenty of kick however I am afraid i'll be working such a large driver over too many octaves and might have some distortion issues over 500Hz which is a critical (500hz to 2kHz) vocal range.
My goal is to not leave the 100Hz to 200Hz range up to the sub woofers. I like the flexibility of digital amplification and will most likely go that route.
Another thought is to build 3 way mains, using dual Dayton PA310 12" woofers crossed digitally @ 500HZ into this 6" midrange which I could probably get good extension to 2kHz but this could be pushing it and the sensitivity is an issue as well.
I like the Selenium 220Ti and there are a few other similiar options but I would probably stick with a horn in that range.
Or maybe a hybrid of both ideas involving the 18" woofer and 6" midrange or even two mid ranges to bring up sensitivity.
Of course there are other drivers as well. Just thinking aloud I may say.
On the mains, is it feasible to say have 2 or even 4 per channel/side positioned slight angled each way to disperse to the crowd better or with 4 having 2 facing forward and 2 facing say 15 degrees off center axis?
I am not probably versed in sound dynamics but I'll try my best to listen here. 🙂
Thanks,
Zphere.
18" mains should only be considered if you are limited on power and running subless. Crossing over at 80-100, two 12's will do the job. My smaller rig has four TH18 and a single pair of 2x12 tops. For dance music it's about right. When arraying you have to consider pattern control - if you don't it just sounds like mush. You want no holes, but minimal overlap in the HF if you're arraying horizontally. The right HF horn, and a 2" compression driver help here - because you can lower the crossover frequency and let the HF horn do its job down to that lower frequency. 3 ways don't array well horizontally unless they are all horn loaded and have pattern control over their entire frequency range. With a typical 15" 3 way with a cone mid, the mids are just too far apart and the horn is crossed too high. You move side to side and get that weird phasey sound. The other really good reason to use 12's is that 12's and 2"HF drivers are really good building blocks for building a proper line array... later. Less wasted money on intermediate steps.
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