In most set ups i have seen the problem is that people that deal with tuning have an opinion about something ...
One opinion is to try to make the system flat IE Equalize the system in the room in a way that you correct the mistakes and problems that are produced by the combination of system/room
QUESTIONS :
--Who is the one to decide that flat is suitable for the application
--Who will predict what will happen with 100ppl in the venue or with 1500ppl in the venue
--in case we have the "flat approach" i expect one microphone to be placed
WHERE ? i will have to presume in the dance floor so a creation of a "sweet spot" there but then the question will be what happens in the rest of the venue ?
The other option will be to have someone setting up with an opinion about the tone of the system .
QUESTIONS
--Who is the one to decide about the tone ?
--What will happen if the one called to setup has a rockish approach about things been listening to rock music all his life , and its favorite thing to do is rock clubs While in the specific venue house music is in order ?
Let us not forget that the one that will perform the setup will also have to preset safety measures like limiters and compressors which will obviously mean that a man with the wrong background in music will easily make catastrophic mistakes there such is inadequate limiting of the low path since rock music requires a very good protion of middle while the low end plays a role but not the most important, while house music is the totally opposite and middle is there while bass will play a more important role .
Been watching techs performing shootings with a pink noise and or other forms inside a club while noticed that the room swallow 3-4db in a specific freq of 2.3khz for example . In this case the tech increases the EQ a few db to match the room and achieve a more flat response ...
Can anybody predict what will happen if the dj is playing any production that has some short of emphasis of 3-4 db in the area of 2.3khz ??? I can ... it will sound horrible ...obviously because the room swallows 3-4 db of middle only at the spot where the shoot was done. In other areas of the venue middle could be flat enough and even worst in some areas might be extensive . 6to 8 db added in the are of 2.3khz will make any sound system sound horrible ...
I placed my questions and opinions are welcome
Kind regards
Sakis
One opinion is to try to make the system flat IE Equalize the system in the room in a way that you correct the mistakes and problems that are produced by the combination of system/room
QUESTIONS :
--Who is the one to decide that flat is suitable for the application
--Who will predict what will happen with 100ppl in the venue or with 1500ppl in the venue
--in case we have the "flat approach" i expect one microphone to be placed
WHERE ? i will have to presume in the dance floor so a creation of a "sweet spot" there but then the question will be what happens in the rest of the venue ?
The other option will be to have someone setting up with an opinion about the tone of the system .
QUESTIONS
--Who is the one to decide about the tone ?
--What will happen if the one called to setup has a rockish approach about things been listening to rock music all his life , and its favorite thing to do is rock clubs While in the specific venue house music is in order ?
Let us not forget that the one that will perform the setup will also have to preset safety measures like limiters and compressors which will obviously mean that a man with the wrong background in music will easily make catastrophic mistakes there such is inadequate limiting of the low path since rock music requires a very good protion of middle while the low end plays a role but not the most important, while house music is the totally opposite and middle is there while bass will play a more important role .
Been watching techs performing shootings with a pink noise and or other forms inside a club while noticed that the room swallow 3-4db in a specific freq of 2.3khz for example . In this case the tech increases the EQ a few db to match the room and achieve a more flat response ...
Can anybody predict what will happen if the dj is playing any production that has some short of emphasis of 3-4 db in the area of 2.3khz ??? I can ... it will sound horrible ...obviously because the room swallows 3-4 db of middle only at the spot where the shoot was done. In other areas of the venue middle could be flat enough and even worst in some areas might be extensive . 6to 8 db added in the are of 2.3khz will make any sound system sound horrible ...
I placed my questions and opinions are welcome
Kind regards
Sakis
one other parameter that a sound engineer will have to face is that most of the times sound engineers get the call after the installation is done , some times by another tech that made things wrong ( according to the owner )
Installation rules are not always available to the sound engineer , either because the installation was done by someone else , or because the venue as an area doesn't feature other installation options , or the decorator that hasn't got an idea about sound engineering has already chosen the sound system with criteria of how it looks and so on and on ...
i think that these add ons should be calculated also in my previous post
kind regards
Sakis
Installation rules are not always available to the sound engineer , either because the installation was done by someone else , or because the venue as an area doesn't feature other installation options , or the decorator that hasn't got an idea about sound engineering has already chosen the sound system with criteria of how it looks and so on and on ...
i think that these add ons should be calculated also in my previous post
kind regards
Sakis
We need a list of the kit that the club current owns.
With no controllers for individual speakers, I'd put a measurement mic 1m away from one of the top speakers, and EQ it down to 100Hz, then 4th order LR (or Butterworth, for a bit more kick) to the subs, which have been EQ'd flat up to 100Hz. 4th order Butterworth at the bottom end of what the subs can do (likely 35Hz with an 18" - use 40Hz if you're unsure).
An amplifier with 2x the RMS rating of the driver will get the most volume out of a driver with a peaky music signal. As soon as that amplifier has limiting applied (including clipping the DJ mixer), its delivering 2x the driver's RMS rating as continous power. Your drivers will burn, simple as that.
I think we have to assume this system will be pushed to the ragged edge, and held there. Make it so that, even with all the limiters lighting up, no driver will get warm.
Chris
With no controllers for individual speakers, I'd put a measurement mic 1m away from one of the top speakers, and EQ it down to 100Hz, then 4th order LR (or Butterworth, for a bit more kick) to the subs, which have been EQ'd flat up to 100Hz. 4th order Butterworth at the bottom end of what the subs can do (likely 35Hz with an 18" - use 40Hz if you're unsure).
An amplifier with 2x the RMS rating of the driver will get the most volume out of a driver with a peaky music signal. As soon as that amplifier has limiting applied (including clipping the DJ mixer), its delivering 2x the driver's RMS rating as continous power. Your drivers will burn, simple as that.
I think we have to assume this system will be pushed to the ragged edge, and held there. Make it so that, even with all the limiters lighting up, no driver will get warm.
Chris
See what i mean ?
1m away you are equing the speaker not the room ...farther more depending of the spread of the horn in a distance of one meter you might misread maaaaaaaany things you need to go behind ...
1m away you are equing the speaker not the room ...farther more depending of the spread of the horn in a distance of one meter you might misread maaaaaaaany things you need to go behind ...
Exactly. The room's all over the show, but if the speakers are putting out a flat-ish response, that's much better than nothing at all.
Edit - also, I'd EQ the ON-axis response flat.
I came across a rather nice PA, where (presumably) they'd got the power response flat (which accounts for off-axis deviations). On-axis gave lots and lots of 2kHz and 10kHz+, as that's where the drivers were getting directive (so the off-axis response was dropping).
When it comes to loud music, dips in the response are much better than peaks.
Edit - also, I'd EQ the ON-axis response flat.
I came across a rather nice PA, where (presumably) they'd got the power response flat (which accounts for off-axis deviations). On-axis gave lots and lots of 2kHz and 10kHz+, as that's where the drivers were getting directive (so the off-axis response was dropping).
When it comes to loud music, dips in the response are much better than peaks.
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Ok then i will have to assume that a flat response is good for any venue regardless , room system and program material ?
I can listen to your opinion but i cant agree I belong to the techs that go for tuning the system according to the program material
I would tune the system in a different way if the program material is rock music different if the program is house music different if the program is classic music and 10 times more careful if the program is mixed
Regards
Sakis
I can listen to your opinion but i cant agree I belong to the techs that go for tuning the system according to the program material
I would tune the system in a different way if the program material is rock music different if the program is house music different if the program is classic music and 10 times more careful if the program is mixed
Regards
Sakis
Omg .... now where this is coming from ???
Playing mono will mean that you will loose above 50 % of your sound stage and also you will be very surprised to know that audience not only know how stereo recordings are but most of the time enjoy both sound stage and stereo effects ....
Mono could be an option in a PA system that distributes audio signals in a very large area with multiple projection areas like small speakers all around the area .
In clubs eventhough peripheral sound might exist and could be defined as mono the main dancefloor system should be stereo and oriended as L+R
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That is common practice at many night clubs. For live acts it's different. You have the audience in front of the speakers. But in night clubs you often have one speaker to cover one area. You could make a stereo pair everywhere. But here we have 5 main speakers, so stereo is probably not optimal.
reproducing HIFI sound in club is the target ....doing it with safety is the ultimate challenge... Making a stereo recording to mono is not an option ....
That is a question of installation and structure of the club In this only case i could put some water in my wine we say in Greece .
We still operate clubs in Athens with capacity of 2000 ppl with one main system and a second peripheral for sitting audience ...
We still operate clubs in Athens with capacity of 2000 ppl with one main system and a second peripheral for sitting audience ...
And you probably have some BSS DSP or the like to control everything. These people will setup everything themselves. You might setup new clubs with partly stereo, but many clubs around are still mono. And I do not agree that Hifi in a club is the target.
And no ..i dont have a BSS or a DBX or nothing ... I expect that i will have to do CD quality sound in the clubs/PA i work no matter what the equipment is ...
The term "reproducing " HIFI sound inside a club is a term that i didn't define properly since various program materials will require other types of kick and emphasis but still you understand what i mean
The term "reproducing " HIFI sound inside a club is a term that i didn't define properly since various program materials will require other types of kick and emphasis but still you understand what i mean
Unless there is something very wrong with the room acoustics, I'd EQ for a flat response.
I can see the SPL demands of different parts of the system (subs vs kick vs mid vs high etc) can be different between Bon Jovi and this, but I wouldn't change the EQ settings to account for this, unless the system was short on headroom.
How would you EQ for the two differently?
IMO, if its been mastered on decent monitors (for playback), it'll sound "HiFi"/"correct"/whatever on a system with a flat response. Anything other than a flat response would be doing something unintended by the studio - ie, definitely not HiFi.
Chris
Sounds like power compression is taking effect there. Tough one - do you sort the EQ for the start, middle, or end of the night..?
Chris
Chris
Start.
Experience has shown me how to eq for least ear fatigue. Mids to 4K tend to be the worst at high spl.
jn
EQing a system flat to begin with is the correct approach.. but hear me out on this. I say "to begin with" because that is just your starting point, once you have the system operating flat in the room then the sound system is a blank canvas and all music types will sound exactly how they were recorded and intended to sound. But that isn't the end of it. Now you have to factor in what happens when the room is filled with people and possibly apply some "personal taste" EQ or genre specific EQ if the place specializes in a certain type of music.. but hopefully the system was designed around that to begin with with the right type and quantity of speakers. Then there is system limiting because the #2 goal of a good setup right behind sound quality is reliability, there is no point of having a kick *** sound if they're going to blow drivers every night.. management won't like that.
I was a DJ from 89 to 96 and have some thoughts
Have no idea why the rule of thumb is twice the program rating of the speakers came from...that makes sense if you use the "peak" rating of cheesy amps since it only lasts 0.01 seconds then the power drops by 50%.
Twice the program power works great if you like power compression, distortion and overall bad sound. The speakers are getting hammered in that there is no "dead air" and the music is compressed so they never get a break to cool down. Throw in a limiter is engaging at every bass hit at the end of the night and not only do you sound really bad--you might be buying new drivers quickly.
Twice the power is +3dB and with massive power compression when operating over program max--you might get 1dB? Massive distortion does sound louder but is also an indication you either don't know what you are doing, not enough rig for the gig or both.
I set up my system "underpowered" you could say. The 1,000 watt bass bins (RMS) where hit with 750 watts RMS. The mains (over 500Hz) were sent 200 watts RMS although they were rated 300 watts RMS. These were the main dance floor speakers with another pair flown for fills at their RMS rating.
The efficiency of the system was 103dB at 1w/1m which helped get the SPL required. At the end of the night, the limiters were giving a light show then turned down just enough to make it mild limiting on monster peaks.
The mixer had a compressor kick in at 0dB with a CR of 3 to 1. If the compressor lights started to pull down (go red) it indicated you are at max. My system operated this way for years with clean sound, no distortion, no blown breakers and not a single driver failure. The patrons would remark the sound was always crystal clear which meant I was a genius or something (uhhhh... red lights are BAD, mmmmm-kay?)
With compressed EDM with around 6dB of dynamic range--I would never go past RMS. The program ratings on speakers ASSUMES it is "live sound" which is not constant so it can cool down. The RMS rating is more a constant rating and gives an idea of thermal capacity. It only takes a few seconds to plug a phone into a mixer and everyone has one so.... your "live only" system can turn into a dance party in seconds... I design for worst possible scenario since the worst happens all the time.
For clubs, patrons love to see large quantities of subwoofers--it looks cool. Having twice the subs running RMS is not a waste of money since you gain reliability, sound quality and...it looks cool. Looks matter since the patrons are paying the bill ultimately.
Good luck!
Have no idea why the rule of thumb is twice the program rating of the speakers came from...that makes sense if you use the "peak" rating of cheesy amps since it only lasts 0.01 seconds then the power drops by 50%.
Twice the program power works great if you like power compression, distortion and overall bad sound. The speakers are getting hammered in that there is no "dead air" and the music is compressed so they never get a break to cool down. Throw in a limiter is engaging at every bass hit at the end of the night and not only do you sound really bad--you might be buying new drivers quickly.
Twice the power is +3dB and with massive power compression when operating over program max--you might get 1dB? Massive distortion does sound louder but is also an indication you either don't know what you are doing, not enough rig for the gig or both.
I set up my system "underpowered" you could say. The 1,000 watt bass bins (RMS) where hit with 750 watts RMS. The mains (over 500Hz) were sent 200 watts RMS although they were rated 300 watts RMS. These were the main dance floor speakers with another pair flown for fills at their RMS rating.
The efficiency of the system was 103dB at 1w/1m which helped get the SPL required. At the end of the night, the limiters were giving a light show then turned down just enough to make it mild limiting on monster peaks.
The mixer had a compressor kick in at 0dB with a CR of 3 to 1. If the compressor lights started to pull down (go red) it indicated you are at max. My system operated this way for years with clean sound, no distortion, no blown breakers and not a single driver failure. The patrons would remark the sound was always crystal clear which meant I was a genius or something (uhhhh... red lights are BAD, mmmmm-kay?)
With compressed EDM with around 6dB of dynamic range--I would never go past RMS. The program ratings on speakers ASSUMES it is "live sound" which is not constant so it can cool down. The RMS rating is more a constant rating and gives an idea of thermal capacity. It only takes a few seconds to plug a phone into a mixer and everyone has one so.... your "live only" system can turn into a dance party in seconds... I design for worst possible scenario since the worst happens all the time.
For clubs, patrons love to see large quantities of subwoofers--it looks cool. Having twice the subs running RMS is not a waste of money since you gain reliability, sound quality and...it looks cool. Looks matter since the patrons are paying the bill ultimately.
Good luck!
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