No one should worry, America's finest scientists and researches are on the problem, as we speak. I'm sure SY is currently unwinding his Charmin to get the empty tube rolls for testing. I see Nobel Prize coming soon. 😀
And audio chalks up another major discovery!!!
And audio chalks up another major discovery!!!
![funny-technician-cable-roll-post[1].jpg](/community/data/attachments/440/440496-a1395f5ff6772d51521a0947d2bc33b7.jpg?hash=oTlfX_Z3LV)
![Cat-CatChewingCableASDLCatIsConnect[1].jpg](/community/data/attachments/440/440498-74b3f8a752ef666bdaad026141576e18.jpg?hash=dLP4p1LvZm)
Still my favorite
- I came here for a good argument!
AH, no you didn't, you came here for an argument!
- An argument isn't just contradiction.
Well! it CAN be!
- No it can't!
An argument is a connected series of statement intended to establish a proposition.
- No it isn't!
Yes it is! 'tisn't just contradiction.
- Look, if I *argue* with you, I must take up a contrary position!
Yes but it isn't just saying "no it isn't".
-Yes it is!
No it isn't!
- Yes it is!
No it isn't!
- Yes it is!
No it ISN'T! Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.
- It is NOT!
It is!
-I'm sorry, the five minutes is up
That was never five minutes
Actually, Mr Barnhart in room 12 was fun, too - lotsa that around here as well
http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_scripts/argument.php
- I came here for a good argument!
AH, no you didn't, you came here for an argument!
- An argument isn't just contradiction.
Well! it CAN be!
- No it can't!
An argument is a connected series of statement intended to establish a proposition.
- No it isn't!
Yes it is! 'tisn't just contradiction.
- Look, if I *argue* with you, I must take up a contrary position!
Yes but it isn't just saying "no it isn't".
-Yes it is!
No it isn't!
- Yes it is!
No it isn't!
- Yes it is!
No it ISN'T! Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.
- It is NOT!
It is!
-I'm sorry, the five minutes is up
That was never five minutes
Actually, Mr Barnhart in room 12 was fun, too - lotsa that around here as well
http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_scripts/argument.php
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Science often advances through observation of tiny discrepancies. So I'm not too quick to dismiss cable lifters as doing something.
The original poster was quite kind about me and a bit miffed with some of you. I'll give you a taste of what he said to me, which I hope doesn't betray a confidence too badly.
Well, shame on some of you. 🙁
Not the friendly, shoot the breeze forum at all, is it? I've taken on board a few simple notions of how a speaker cable could work best in terms of earthing and RF pickup and resistance. Those are systems engineering considerations which I always enjoy. In fact it's what I did with submarine cable systems.
Do you realise you've even dissed the Professors at Imperial College, London as some sort of undergraduate level simpletons? They also taught postgraduate. And were GOOD. Like most real talents, they could explain difficult things in a simple way. They could focus on what matters and what doesn't.
Here's a genius guy, Professor Leonard Susskind of Stanford University explaining the Higgs Boson in a very simple way. Well, it's still hard for the rest of us. But I like this sort of thing. He ran the SLAC accelerator and did a thing or two with string theory too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqNg819PiZY
The original poster was quite kind about me and a bit miffed with some of you. I'll give you a taste of what he said to me, which I hope doesn't betray a confidence too badly.
Well, shame on some of you. 🙁
Not the friendly, shoot the breeze forum at all, is it? I've taken on board a few simple notions of how a speaker cable could work best in terms of earthing and RF pickup and resistance. Those are systems engineering considerations which I always enjoy. In fact it's what I did with submarine cable systems.
Do you realise you've even dissed the Professors at Imperial College, London as some sort of undergraduate level simpletons? They also taught postgraduate. And were GOOD. Like most real talents, they could explain difficult things in a simple way. They could focus on what matters and what doesn't.
Here's a genius guy, Professor Leonard Susskind of Stanford University explaining the Higgs Boson in a very simple way. Well, it's still hard for the rest of us. But I like this sort of thing. He ran the SLAC accelerator and did a thing or two with string theory too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqNg819PiZY
So sorry system7 if you and the OP and the Professors at IC have had your collective feathers ruffled, but waste of time and money audio crap like cable lifters get far more respect than they deserve. Perhaps you should launch an audio forum where only uncritical laudatory comments are made...oops too late.
system7,
No doubt you're a nice chap. I don't know where to start, but you say your profs could focus on what matters. Do you seriously think cable stands matter? If so, maybe you should contact them for a discussion....seriously.
If the effect is so profound, one must wonder why this wasn't discovered so many years ago as something that could be a problem affecting critical apps.
I think we also need to get over the hump that human ears are sensitive pieces of biological engineering...they're not and I've been fooled enough times myself. But if I were a whale....hmmm.... 😉
No doubt you're a nice chap. I don't know where to start, but you say your profs could focus on what matters. Do you seriously think cable stands matter? If so, maybe you should contact them for a discussion....seriously.
If the effect is so profound, one must wonder why this wasn't discovered so many years ago as something that could be a problem affecting critical apps.
I think we also need to get over the hump that human ears are sensitive pieces of biological engineering...they're not and I've been fooled enough times myself. But if I were a whale....hmmm.... 😉
@ kevinaahc20. My feathers can't be ruffled, because I understand the science, and the science always wins. I went to the best College, with the best staff and brightest students in the UK for this sort of telecom stuff. And I don't back down for that reason.
@sonidos. You don't know where to start with WHAT? Cable effects are a Physics problem. There's known ways of analysing them. And there's exact wideband transmission line solutions, and more fudged lumped LCR approximations.
Maybe cable lifters do something. I really don't know. I came to some conclusions about the best way of designing a twisted pair cable, and the crossover and amplifier input to minimise the high frequency and earthing problems and effects. So really, I've focussed on the areas where we can do better.
There's not a huge takeaway from this thread. But enough for me to implement as some good design choices. Come on, let's get focussed. Why is the below a bad cable? How do you improve it?
@sonidos. You don't know where to start with WHAT? Cable effects are a Physics problem. There's known ways of analysing them. And there's exact wideband transmission line solutions, and more fudged lumped LCR approximations.
Maybe cable lifters do something. I really don't know. I came to some conclusions about the best way of designing a twisted pair cable, and the crossover and amplifier input to minimise the high frequency and earthing problems and effects. So really, I've focussed on the areas where we can do better.
There's not a huge takeaway from this thread. But enough for me to implement as some good design choices. Come on, let's get focussed. Why is the below a bad cable? How do you improve it?
Attachments
We await with some interest your pointing us to published work (or just lecture notes) from an IC prof on the subject of cable lifters. Should we order popcorn?system7 said:
A 'debating ploy' which is sometimes used on here is to claim "my colleagues/professors who know much more than you about this subject confirmed to me that I am right and you are wrong". Such a claim cannot be tested, as we don't know what you said to them and what they said to you. However, there is a superficially similar claim whuch can sometimes be tested: "my textbook says you are wrong". I say "sometimes" because it requires that the textbook be readily available, and some books are not. When the claim can be tested, sometimes it turns out that the person making the claim has misunderstood the textbook and it actually disproves what they are saying.
So, where is the IC professor (preferably in EE or physics) who will explain cable lifters to us? Of course, that doesn't mean he is right; I have heard professors get things wrong. There was even an IC EE prof who publicly humiliated himself by claiming anti-gravity from gyroscopes. Eventually, an IC physics prof had to publicly correct him by doing the full maths, which I seem to recall used Lagrangian techniques which went beyond the understanding of most EEs.
Clear vinyl often causes copper corrosion. A pigmented insulation would be much better.
It's funny how concentrating on nonsense can distract someone from understanding the big issues.
Is it a bad cable? If you want a particular impedance for RF purposes it might be a good cable. For audio purposes it might have too much loop area, so dropping the webbing and twisting it would help - provided you can cope with the increased capacitance.system7 said:
What has this got to do with cable lifters?
BTW publishing part of what I assume was a PM or email is bad form without the author's permission. DIYaudio is an open forum. People say things; others may say contrary things. If people don't like being contradicted then most internet forums may not be for them.
Note the word "often."
Yeah, that "evidence" stuff is a real buzz-kill. It's so much more fun just making stuff up as we go along. Show me on the doll where the aliens touched you.
Stuart, was is the mechanism of vinyl causing copper corrosion ?.
The corrosion causing cable sheaths that I have encountered have a 'greasy' property with ageing.
Are other metals susceptible to vinyl exudations ?.
Dan.
The corrosion causing cable sheaths that I have encountered have a 'greasy' property with ageing.
Are other metals susceptible to vinyl exudations ?.
Dan.
Copper is particularly reactive. Tinning helps, but it's a matter of slowing down, not eliminating the problem. The C-Cl bond is quite labile, and photons are not kind to it. That's one reason that a high level of inorganic pigment is a good idea in speaker cables.
I have some lengths of Monster Cable that have gone quite green (copper chloride).
I have some lengths of Monster Cable that have gone quite green (copper chloride).
There are other universities in the UK that might argue with that. Anyway having great academics does not stop the odd loon getting through. Also defending your lack of understanding my quoting your Alma Mater is usually a sign of having realised you have lost the argument but not willing to admit.
Don't assume that, even with an education imparted by smart and competent professors, one emerges similarly smart and competent.😀
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