Nothing at all, people hear differences all the time. But when you claim to hear differences that go beyond factors that have been demonstrated to be audible, then you have a burden of proof. Indeed, one can just continue to assert these things without evidence, but that's what separates honest practitioners from hucksters.
Also sprach ZaraScopa? 😀
Hi,
Yep. That was a moment I'll never forget for the rest of my life. Too bad it was so short lived...
Still, it makes you wonder. When you look at the circuit diagram of the JA200, ECC83/12AX7A driving 10 KT88's per polarity, a drooping HF starting at around 18KHZ, speakers costing about 1/10th of the amps etc. and yet.
What it did right is to transport you to the concert hall with an ease that's truly jaw dropping. Speakers disappeared, walls gone. Awesome.
I don't quite remember the specific measurement data of that amp but it sure wasn't all that impressive.
This was an amp that may well not deliver the complete message but what it did deliver it did with what seems to me to be a great respect of phase coherency.
I can do that with my system as well sometimes, never could make it work with the Edith Piaf record though.
So, here we go again, other than the expensive Jadis stuff, nothing there I'd classify as super high-end and yet and yet...
BTW, a fellow country man of yours was there as well, with a family name similar to that famous Greek brandy. 😀 . He used to do valve amps but at that time he was there to demo his solid state offerings. You may know him.
That was around 86 or 87 in the Fall. Goes to show how young I really am...
Cheers, 😉
Hi,
Yep. That was a moment I'll never forget for the rest of my life. Too bad it was so short lived...
Still, it makes you wonder. When you look at the circuit diagram of the JA200, ECC83/12AX7A driving 10 KT88's per polarity, a drooping HF starting at around 18KHZ, speakers costing about 1/10th of the amps etc. and yet.
What it did right is to transport you to the concert hall with an ease that's truly jaw dropping. Speakers disappeared, walls gone. Awesome.
I don't quite remember the specific measurement data of that amp but it sure wasn't all that impressive.
This was an amp that may well not deliver the complete message but what it did deliver it did with what seems to me to be a great respect of phase coherency.
I can do that with my system as well sometimes, never could make it work with the Edith Piaf record though.
So, here we go again, other than the expensive Jadis stuff, nothing there I'd classify as super high-end and yet and yet...
BTW, a fellow country man of yours was there as well, with a family name similar to that famous Greek brandy. 😀 . He used to do valve amps but at that time he was there to demo his solid state offerings. You may know him.
That was around 86 or 87 in the Fall. Goes to show how young I really am...
Cheers, 😉
This happens Frank, and I don't know completely why. But I accept what I hear, and that helps me make better audio products.
I'm not trying to say hearing any differences in "anything" is superhuman, I'm trying to say that if you (and I mean this finger pointing with all the bromanship possible) say that you hear something that no controlled test ever conducted has proved, there's only two possible conclusions, either a fib is being told, or there's a delusion at play.
So, rather than be disrespectful to the point of just flat out accusing people of needing medication, I really try to reinforce the point that people should either not make "dis-proven with current technology" claims, or at the very least, preface them by announcing their actual veracity, rather than spend all this time trying to call foul on testing methods, call into question the hearing ability of the other participants, or my favorite, the complete cop-out, "your gear must just suck." or "I don't need no stinkin test, I've been doing this for 35 years." as if more time spent fibbing to oneself equals a stronger debating platform.
My biggest issue in all of this is the disservice that it does for those who actually don't know any better, or who might be reading a thread like this while researching reviews or information on the potential purchase of an expensive product. Now we've got hundreds of posts that, save for being called into question by myself or others, are inseparable from factual information, yet still searchable for some poor goofball who's going to plunk the extra $500 on a silver interconnect or $10,000 on a fancy room-jewelery amplifier based on emotional opinions that have no basis in fact.
That's what it's all about ... once you've experienced that you can never go back to considering the normal level of sound as being sufficient, from then on your "sentence", 😀, is to keep chasing that experience, to be to recreate it on demand ... 🙂
Piaf is a toughy - the "standard" of the recordings, the qualities of her voice make strong demands for reproduction cleaniness, she is a fairly severe test. However, you have heard the recording deliver that soundscape, therefore you know it exists in the grooves - your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to bring it back ... 😉
The bummer is that it is so hard, the frustration I've felt over the years trying to hang on to, stabilise the system sufficiently to continuously maintain that standard of reproduction is not a pleasant memory. The plus is that one slowly, steadily learns - what is important, and what isn't.
Ah, yes ... Metaxas, 🙄 - also known, like Jadis, for equipment that had a penchant for self-destruction, especially here, 🙂. Dealing with that equipment is a love/hate thing - he is not held in high regard here ...
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What the people who are jumping up and down ferociously about doing "measurements" don't get, by a long way - is that convincing sound has never, ever been present during an ABX trial or anything like it; it's always comparing mediocre A with mediocre B - pretty boring to someone who has zero interest in mediocre sound.
Arguing about which B&W TV is better is rather pointless, when the real aim is to watch in colour ...
Arguing about which B&W TV is better is rather pointless, when the real aim is to watch in colour ...
So you have a writers list, a readers list, and a non-read list.
(just in case I ever think my shelf life is complicated)
While people insist on using normal music, say, in ABX and similar it always will do relatively badly as an assessment tool. Stress testing is the only way to go - put on the the "nastiest" track you can think of, and differences will pop out, be obvious to hear ...
It doesn't have to be though, there's no reason why someone interested in actually doing the test can do it properly, comparing whatever piece of gear they want. Saying that the test doesn't work because you've seen it done with mediocre gear is a bit like saying earthquake early warning systems don't work because you saw one fail in the slums of Calcutta.
Hi,
Those that don't know any better and spend their money on silly items will do so regardless of what they read, here or elsewhere.
I would find it intellectually and morally dishonest on my part if I were not to communicate my experiences.
Whether or not these experiences qualify as scientific proof is besides the point.
I'm very happy to see some of them confirmed by others, especially so when I have the greatest respect for their listening abilities.
That, to my mind at least, proves at least something.
Proof comes or doesn't come. I'm old and (hopefully) wise enough to know that what's true today isn't necessarily true tomorrow.
Just like yourself I'm also waiting for scientific evidence.
So far I've not seen any set of specs that allows me to predict what that device will sound like. More often than not the more "impressive" the specs the less impressed I am by the sound it makes....
Not saying it doesn't exist or can't be done, just haven't seen it yet.
A nice enough bloke though. Nicely finished gear but the sound of it was rather underwhelming. As were many others of the big names at that show in all fairness.
Too bad you missed it, you would have felt right at home with the rest of the gang.
Cheers, 😉
Those that don't know any better and spend their money on silly items will do so regardless of what they read, here or elsewhere.
I would find it intellectually and morally dishonest on my part if I were not to communicate my experiences.
Whether or not these experiences qualify as scientific proof is besides the point.
I'm very happy to see some of them confirmed by others, especially so when I have the greatest respect for their listening abilities.
That, to my mind at least, proves at least something.
Proof comes or doesn't come. I'm old and (hopefully) wise enough to know that what's true today isn't necessarily true tomorrow.
Just like yourself I'm also waiting for scientific evidence.
So far I've not seen any set of specs that allows me to predict what that device will sound like. More often than not the more "impressive" the specs the less impressed I am by the sound it makes....
Not saying it doesn't exist or can't be done, just haven't seen it yet.
A nice enough bloke though. Nicely finished gear but the sound of it was rather underwhelming. As were many others of the big names at that show in all fairness.
Too bad you missed it, you would have felt right at home with the rest of the gang.
Cheers, 😉
The test can certainly be done properly - just use the right material, the right tools, thoroughly thought out procedures. The impression I get is that invariably this is never done, hence all the disputes.
MBL and Bryston are two examples I've heard that do spec's and can deliver good sound - the characteristics are not mutually exclusive; but prime quality, conventional spec's are only part of the package.
I would use "strongly suggests" in place of "proves." But you didn't say what that "something" might be, nor will I.
Hi,
LOL.
As in strongly suggesting I'm not completely delusional perhaps?
You're quite correct though, I should have worded it more carefully.
Cheers, 😉
LOL.
As in strongly suggesting I'm not completely delusional perhaps?
You're quite correct though, I should have worded it more carefully.
Cheers, 😉
Hey, go for what you want. IF you think that for a small sum, that you can get the same fidelity as a more massively engineered effort, go for it. 4558's anyone? Ceramic coupling caps?
I design them out, and I get better sound. I am willing to pay twice over the original price, IF I can make a piece of audio equipment sound better (to me).
I design them out, and I get better sound. I am willing to pay twice over the original price, IF I can make a piece of audio equipment sound better (to me).
Not anyone who has bothered to read the literature or actually done the work of setting up a proper test. But if one repeats a lie enough times, it becomes truth.
Then the answer is simple - more curiosity. More questioning. I'm not seeing that so far from those of 'objectivist' persuasion so I conclude that objectivists do not really, really want to learn. They just say they do.
Indeed so ask, ask, ask when they tell you 'the sound really opened up'. Ask them to describe how it opened up, what music they were listening to when this happened.
It really did open up for them because that's what they said. But the more important question is 'will it do the same for me?'.
Sorry, which was the first question - 'did it really open up?' or 'did you do a DBT?' ?
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