I have seen situations where the sound quality was obviously bad, it wasn't a matter of not hearing the problem. I knew what was wrong (compressors, time constants, etc. - I won't bore you with the details) but the mixing engineer just could not seem to figure it out. I cannot believe that he didn't hear it. It wasn't a subtle problem. The whole thing was a blur. And this was Gwen Steffani - no minor act.
By the way, your criticism of my not posting any thermal measurements was fair, I hadn't - so I went back and looked (backups from 2007). I seem to have the raw data, but the plots are in a format for a graphics package that I no longer have. I found one which, fortunately, does highlight the point that I was trying to make. The attached file shows a common system at different points in time with a constant playing of a fairly loud white noise. The frequency response is test at different times (don't recall the spacing) as the system heated up. It is clear that thermal was a serious issue in this speaker. The same test on some Summas showed very little change (as I recall, certainly not as bad as what is shown here. I could not find that plot however.)
It sucks. Do understand that none of us like what we are forced to do. I decided to unsquash a swamp pop CD a bit compared to others I had done recently. The record sounded great, but guess what? I won't again.
Hell if I know😉.
Again, I'm talking broadly here and this was in the context of professionals with their hands on the sliders, but when instruments remind you of how they sound live, voices seem to have a natural human quality, there is a sense of a pleasant acoustical space, distortion is not perceptable, musical balance is good (bass mid and treble in nice proportion) loudness is at a level that you like: loud enough to just feel the bass, not so loud as to having you cringe and back away. These to me all add up to good sound.
I find it interesting that orchestra conductors struggle with this all the time even without any sound reproduction gear in use: how do I get the violins in balance with the string bass? If I ask the violins to play louder will they sound harsh and strained? Do I need more players? How can I get enough bite from the brass section without it bighting yur head off? Why do the kettle drums sound muddy? Whats wrong with our hall acoustics? Why is the sound thin when the same musicians sound fuller at our summer location or out on tour?
All of our Hi Fi problems with no electrons involved at all.
David
No, it was a winner of "one of those" shows. I don't want to put the person on the spot, a couple of huge guest artist were on it as well. The person has a great chance of another deal soon. I will say it was absolutely the best names in the biz on production, mixing and mastering. It really went south "somewhere"
Me too. Somehow I just can't grasp the level of subjective comments made in these forums from hundred of members - regarding this mod or that mod. Without so much as a shred of empirical evidence other than it sounds better. Better than what?! At the very least I think there should always be some level of A/B comparison testing, but I fear that very seldom happens. And even then, it is subject to our own expectation bias! It's mind boggling to say the least! So one should always use a 'neutral' 3rd party to help substantiate any such subjective claim. I need to have the facts! Sure, some will publish a scope screenshot to bolster the electrical affect - which by all rights - should be an indicator, positively, or negatively of the influence on the sonic results. But that's not necessarily true either, or at least not all the time. Just read how often Doug Self is taken to task for trying to produce the absolute best sound from his circuits by focusing on measurements first. He is praised by most and skewered by others for his approach.
I'm much more inclined to start with the measurable specs than not and work from there. I'm NOT specifically picking on you either, David. Only since it (subjectivity) is part of this thread.Rick
Hi Earl,
Thanks for pulling out the data. I'm not sure I am comprehending it fully. You are just driving with pink noise and showing the difference curves between different levels or different times into the test? There seems to be a lot of frequency dependence, say the difference swing betweeen 9kHz and 15kHz. Any idea on how to interpret it?
I think I linked to straight response curves as we had done at JBL. i.e. measure at 1, 10 and 100 watts, or 80, 90, and 100dB nominal. Subtract 10 and 20dB from the higher curves and see the relative shift in level vs. frequency. For the most part when done that way you are seeing a trend for the woofer with more compression where impedance is lowest (most current) and some change from the network EQ. Then in the tweeter you see the same, only more so, as it runs hotter for a fixed level input and suffers more compression because of it.
Should your curves compare roughly to mine?
David
First it was while noise because I used cross-correlation and white noise means a flat response. this is a bit unfair in that there is more HF content in white noise than one would typically be found in music.
The signal is played and the data taken for say 10 seconds. Each 1 second section has it frequency response evaluated and this is done sequentially. So the data is not comparable to yours. Yours is a steady state at various level and mine is various times at a steady level. These changes are what led me to look at thermal transients as this was far more variation than I figured would exist in such a short period of time.
Ever since I have wanted to shorten the time frame down more and more to see just exactly what kind of time frame things were changing significantly.
Shortly after this data was taken Ai went under and it was chaos and I never got back to it.
Indeed- pretty significant! Do you remember the drive level and driver size?Morels usually have pretty hefty coils.
I hate amplified shows and I used to earn my living from them. 🙁 I did my level best to make things sound good. Most of the guys behind the console have a completely different idea of what good sound is, than we do. They want to get across the power and the emotion. Many want Rock to have "bite", to hurt you. Again, part of the experience. Ditto for the bass that punches you in the gut. It's an experience, not sound. Energy, not audio.
Mixing Latin or jazz was always a treat for me. At least I know how that's supposed to sound, and enjoy that sound.
Mixing Latin or jazz was always a treat for me. At least I know how that's supposed to sound, and enjoy that sound.
Active crossovers are easier, for sure. You have more chances to get it right.
Passive crossovers - done right - are for real men. 😛
Yeah but the real reasons for them are going away. Real reason now is less wires to speaker. What it will be is a power cord and an ip address. You can see it coming a mile away. Audio snakes? History already. Cat5 now no wires next.
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Different uses. In pro audio we've been using powered speakers since about 1996. That a speaker with the crossover and amps built in. Love it!
But home Hi-Fis a different beast.
But home Hi-Fis a different beast.
Nice audiophile 'meme': active crossovers are for wimps and beginners. It also implies that passive crossovers perform better than their toy brethren. Yes, I can see that one spreading quite well. 🙂
As I said it can work. My 2c was just that it isn't the only way, and limiting yourself to outstanding drivers just so you can use minimal crossovers is also limiting what you can build.
Unfortunately it was seven years ago, and at my age I am lucky to remember yesterday. I don't remember any details, just the intent of the test. I wanted to see how the system changed in time under high load. I saw no data whatever in this regard in the literature and I was curious. You must understand that this is NOT power compression as it is usually tested, its quite a different thing, that's why I called it Transient Thermal. The more data I got the more convinced I became that this transient aspect was significant and different from the steady state thermal compression that the literature talked about. I am still convinced, but lack the resources and time to delve further.
The Morel was a standard small woofer and 1" tweeter - I expected it to be worse case. The tweeter was what "lost it". The woofer held up much better. In the compression driver system the differences were profound. That's where I kept thinking "Is this 'dynamics'?" I had not given the perception of dynamics much thought prior to those tests. I thought it was just more audiofool jargon describing something subjective that had no concrete basis in science. If this is not an audible effect then I will fail to understand what the perception of "dynamics" is. If dynamics is real then it has to be measureable. If not this then what?
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Not for long, remember I have lived on all sides of this all my life, as you seem to have done as well. Starts here goes there. Women will get rid of wires and put "planty things" in front of sockets. Make wireless hifi a real economic reality? Oh hell yes all of those wires will go away. Make sorting channels as easy as an ip address? it's a done deal, it's coming this way. It's probably easier to source an outlet that run speaker wires. Multi sets of wires are out of the question. Amps are dirt cheap and getting dirt cheaper. The real thing audiophiles do want is however, is something to play with, yeah like a new power amp. But give "the other half" a reason to do away with a component and they will. Sue me but "the other half" seem to care more than the other, other half about covering up sockets and wires. What did you call a man cave years ago? Well it was called a living room, had speakers and wires in it,
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