Would you define midbass as in above where the typical sub is crossed in at?
Personal experience (both Pro and Audiophile) tells me these cues blend into the overall experience from the bottom up in an outdoor setting, becoming critical above 500Hz. But indoors that bottom end is determined more by the room dimensions.
Perhaps not all can tell, but I would think those that have do not have impaired hearing can distinguish the directionality of very low frequencies when outdoors as long as we are greater than the wavelength of the lowest frequency produced. There is little in the way of altering these VLF waves preventing us from knowing where it originated. But when it's higher in frequency sound waves hit and are reflected off of various structures. Think outside in the middle of a field vs a downtown surroundings. In this we can give a general direction of where that VLF came from, but with the buildings reflecting sound, bouncing off one another, makes localization nearly impossible due to the multipath. This is one of the tennents of the microphones used in NY City for determining where gun shots are fired from. The first arrival is the most critical for determining direction in time/distance compensated phase angle. Conversely in an indoor setting we have walls that interfere with these VLF waves bouncing endlessly about accentuated/nulled by the room. These modes mask the real from the reflected causing us all grief inside our listening rooms. Whereas higher tones bounce about diffracted and reflected causing issue with imaging if left to it's own accord.
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I hear space in the 100-300Hz range, approximately. Sometimes higher. It has come to my attention - thru a number of blind tests - that I seem to be better than average at locating LF sounds. It was an early morning earthquake that really pointed that out to me.
But location and space don't mean the same thing to me.
But location and space don't mean the same thing to me.
Pure conjecture on my part... I think the room modes blur what we can localize at low frequencies when indoors. In large arenas this isn't so much an issue, properly design theaters, concert halls etc show little issue if any. But our typical listening room these wavelengths cannot unfold properly. Below the first mode it is impossible to define direction. As we progress above the first mode and to the second little has improved, but a sense of direction might be possible if the system is set up symmetrically. Above the third is where we can define direction.
I do encourage anyone to challenge this, make counter claims or whatever. I'm here as just anyone whom wants to improve our knowledge. Please have at it 🙂
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I think the point is that while we may not be good at locating sources of low frequencies, the low frequencies still give us information about the size and type of the space.
Yes, exactly my position. I set up subs to be a little overdamped, typically. My customers/friends who I've convinced that they're not going to ruin the "purity" of the midrange if they have a properly large (as in, not distorting audibly) or better yet multilocated sub setup, ask "Why does the treble sound better?" I tend to allow a small response dip at the XO too. Better sub setups aren't just able to go deeper louder, the same factors that allow deeper/louder/lower distortion ALSO help them disappear better.
They usually point to a better sense of space, ease and ambience as the biggest things that they get with proper LF, and don't get without. The sense of ease is a non-fatiguing sound that meshes with what their ears and body expect from a musical experience.
Interestingly, and I will agree SOMEWHAT with fas42 here, properly designed and built overpowered amps also do contribute to that sense of ease. But they only do so so long as the speaker can handle some extra headroom, which is often not the case. With my system, my amps couldn't deliver the 1kW+ my speakers could handle, but I figure 400wpc into 100ish efficiency speakers is probably sufficient.
I don't listen THAT loud.... usually. It's nice to be free to enjoy the "big stuff" at full concert level, which takes a surprising amount of zoot, both from amp and speaker, even though my multimeter says an SET could do what I'm listening to.
In my opinion this are not the one and only truth!
Even with the most optimal room and the most optional speakers there are huge differences between amplifiers and DACs and cables and ....
As an example: I recently upgraded my JFET class A amplifiers so I can adjust the feedback (no loop feedback) and thus the THD - noise ratio.
First I only changed the feedback to a fixed higher feedback rate,
but the result was not as expected -> I expected it should simply play better - but it did not..
When the THD goes down the noise goes up (even if minimal), and I had to implement a way to adjust the ratio and thus find the most optimal fidelity setting.
And more importantly the listening room it is being reproduced in!
Is why I believe some power through it and not in a bad way if in a very large room listening from say 3-4 meters, but is also why other trumpet the hearld with distributed bass is important. I believe others are satisified with less is more because they limit how much that freaky phase shifting that goes all awry to them, perhaps as a self sacrifice being more attuned perhaps. 🙂
Psst, my grandmother would drive me nuts when visiting. Could not turn it up above say 60dB or she'd complain about the bass constantly waking her on the opposite end our the house!
I can stand on the side of the fence of distributed bass, until I get to... walk around without phasiness. Just how do you time align that mess? Well think I came up with a compromise, will have to see how that bull works out 😉
And the WAF lets me do whatever, I'm the decorator, the chef, the mechanic, the fix anything, especially battery powered kid toys 😛LOL😛 ...have you ever seen what a 21 year old "baby" can do to a toy?! Holy crap Tonka needs to step up their game! Better yet just use strapping tape first!😀
(Spent the morning fixn, behind in my repair work, 5 more to go...)
Yes, and many of my blind tests have taken place in large to medium spaces, or outside. But I still do better there than most people - I have no idea why. Just an oddball, I suppose. And I do OK in my own listening room.
I've given Earl Geddes a good deal of grief on the subject over the years. I'm coming to realize that my LF hearing may not be typical. I'm not great at HF location, by contrast.
I'm really sensitive to the 3-5k area and bass phase. Bass feels like one side or the other an invisible sonex panel was dangling. Like your being sucked in one direction or the other... OK LAUGH it wasn't intended to be funny, but... it is LOL 😀
arrrrrgggg my MX1000 is a double clickn 10 year old chicken.
Uggg, another toy to add to the list
arrrrrgggg my MX1000 is a double clickn 10 year old chicken.
Uggg, another toy to add to the list
s
Oh yes indeed, yes indeed. We are living in the era of multiple truths. I accept that. My posts are based on a dogmatic sort of logic that is admittedly behind the times. One must live with the social (or anti-social) implications of that.
(-: Ahhh and then there are *cables* Cables, the Orwellian audio component.
I shall start a cable company:
"Orwell Interconnects" Two guesses on the model number of the first product.
Oh yes indeed, yes indeed. We are living in the era of multiple truths. I accept that. My posts are based on a dogmatic sort of logic that is admittedly behind the times. One must live with the social (or anti-social) implications of that.
(-: Ahhh and then there are *cables* Cables, the Orwellian audio component.
I shall start a cable company:
"Orwell Interconnects" Two guesses on the model number of the first product.
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Miles more than enough I should think ...
badman, how would you assess whether speakers could handle the extra headroom, as a serious question?
I have been amazed many times over the years by being able to drive pretty ordinary speaker drivers to ear deafening levels, completely clean sound - yes, there hasn't been scads of very LF throbbing going on at the same time -- but it didn't really seem necessary at the time, 😀 ...
Edit: I remember one occasion, many years ago - family get together ... AC/DC "Long Way to The Top", full throttle, everyone dancing, the bagpipes cutting through the air with that vicious intensity that they have, had to shout in each other's ears to hear - this was club energy going on ... . Sound was as clean as clean could be, no damage done, good, satisfying relaxed feeling at the end of it all - this is the sort of impact you get if you stood in the middle of a brass band going down the street ...
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Be aware that artistically and purposely limiting dynamic range to what the average to fine speaker and listening environment can handle is a large part of what mixing and mastering engineers are paid to do. If we did not do so there would be *very* few non horn loaded speaker systems that could handle what we could give you, nor would you like it. At one moment you would be straining to hear soft sections over your climate control or road noise in your house or car, the next you would certainly be replacing drivers. This is the dirty little secret of audio. This is the real reason non efficient speakers are tolerable. Oh yea this truth will not be popular but it needs to be told. The real dynamic range of a close miced rock snare drum without mechanical or electrical compression would not be tolerable. Don't believe me? Stick your ear 4 inches from a snare drum played with brushes or lightly, then whacked a few times. You will not be worried about hifi much after that. Hard truth. You need either efficient speakers or more speakers to approach what we *could* give you. Small speakers and big amps are either going to compress or blow. And that really is a fact.
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Oh yeah, I'm confusing Annie Lennox and Prince. Orwell..... Wait, wait. I know!
Model # 4LG-2LB
Model # 4LG-2LB
perhaps model 1984, or the "Big Brother" 🙂
I know where you are coming from on the compression etc, but look at CD recordings from the 80's that DO work well on various systems and compare those to recordings of today.
There is a BIG difference in the dynamic range. Modern day recordings tend to be squeezed within an inch of their life. Everything is squashed together in an almost equally loud mismash of sound. I assume the reason is that to get decent volume out of an iphone/ipod the recording needs to be close to the limits.
Tony.
I know where you are coming from on the compression etc, but look at CD recordings from the 80's that DO work well on various systems and compare those to recordings of today.
There is a BIG difference in the dynamic range. Modern day recordings tend to be squeezed within an inch of their life. Everything is squashed together in an almost equally loud mismash of sound. I assume the reason is that to get decent volume out of an iphone/ipod the recording needs to be close to the limits.
Tony.