They are currently decorating the inside of my desk drawer at work, following a round of network analysis.
The point is to try and go beyond just immediately reacting to something "sounding stupid" ...
Interference causes audible effects.
High frequency electrical activity can generate interference.
Modifying cables which handle high frequency signals can alter the spectrum of frequencies passing through them, and/or change the level of interference being radiated, or picked up
Everything needs to be looked at carefully to see whether there is any sort of linkage that can have audible effects ...
Everything needs to be looked at carefully to see whether there is any sort of way to charge the gullible more for the same results...........there I fixed it for you.
Dear fas46,
Ethernet frames are typically about 8000 bits (1000 bytes). These are the units that either arrive or don't. They don't arrive partially, or with clouded mids, or whatever, that data arrives or it doesn't.
On the receiving end of an Ethernet connection, there is a PHY chip and a MAC implementation that looks at the frame, decides whether it's for them, then unpacks the outer header layers and passes the payload on to the software implementation.
At multiple layers in between, data may be buffered. For example, entire frames will be buffered to check the checksum at the end and reject the package if it is inconsistent.
Then, the data (no matter whether it's raw PCM, MP3 or whatever) is passed on to the player software. (Rather, the software reads from the buffer of incoming data).
In other words, timings are not an issue. Even a meagre 10Mbit LAN will transfer data a lot quicker than even your highest res audio files. The worst Ethernet connection of all times will have no troubles filling all relevant buffers on the player device consistently, so up to the point where the player software writes data to the sound interface/DAC, there is not the faintest possibility that a standard, decent Cat 5 cable will sound differently from an 'audiophile' one.
Ethernet frames are typically about 8000 bits (1000 bytes). These are the units that either arrive or don't. They don't arrive partially, or with clouded mids, or whatever, that data arrives or it doesn't.
On the receiving end of an Ethernet connection, there is a PHY chip and a MAC implementation that looks at the frame, decides whether it's for them, then unpacks the outer header layers and passes the payload on to the software implementation.
At multiple layers in between, data may be buffered. For example, entire frames will be buffered to check the checksum at the end and reject the package if it is inconsistent.
Then, the data (no matter whether it's raw PCM, MP3 or whatever) is passed on to the player software. (Rather, the software reads from the buffer of incoming data).
In other words, timings are not an issue. Even a meagre 10Mbit LAN will transfer data a lot quicker than even your highest res audio files. The worst Ethernet connection of all times will have no troubles filling all relevant buffers on the player device consistently, so up to the point where the player software writes data to the sound interface/DAC, there is not the faintest possibility that a standard, decent Cat 5 cable will sound differently from an 'audiophile' one.
Oh, did I mention that Ethernet connections are required to be isolated by the Ethernet standard? So you are not conductively connecting any ground or power lines, and the data lines are isolated. (Much unlike USB, where isolated connections are a rarity and you are essentially coupling the GNDs of the two connected systems through whatever cable you use, so while I'm not convinced by them either, I am willing to give USB cables the benefit of the doubt.)
From your list, the only failure mode still possible is radiation emitted by the cable. It's in the MHz and milliamps range, AND everyone who's in for audiophile Ethernet cables surely already has supermegamaxshielded cables for everything else. Everyone is welcome to prove with actual measurements that Ethernet cables do radiate at problematic levels.
I actually agree with you, everything needs to be looked at carefully. It's just that I think I looked at this fairly carefully and came to a sensible conclusion.
By the way, the vendors I have found do not make any statement as to *how* their Ethernet cable is meant to improve the sound. All they have is a bunch of half-anonymous customer testimonials.
edit: And if all of that wasn't enough... I dug up the manufacturer's website, and the cable is not even shielded! They claim that their unique design makes the data transmission characteristics of the cable better, which is something that I think I have conclusively proved to be utterly irrelevant in my previous post.
From your list, the only failure mode still possible is radiation emitted by the cable. It's in the MHz and milliamps range, AND everyone who's in for audiophile Ethernet cables surely already has supermegamaxshielded cables for everything else. Everyone is welcome to prove with actual measurements that Ethernet cables do radiate at problematic levels.
I actually agree with you, everything needs to be looked at carefully. It's just that I think I looked at this fairly carefully and came to a sensible conclusion.
By the way, the vendors I have found do not make any statement as to *how* their Ethernet cable is meant to improve the sound. All they have is a bunch of half-anonymous customer testimonials.
edit: And if all of that wasn't enough... I dug up the manufacturer's website, and the cable is not even shielded! They claim that their unique design makes the data transmission characteristics of the cable better, which is something that I think I have conclusively proved to be utterly irrelevant in my previous post.
Last edited:
Nice, I've got 4 years older in the interim ... 😉
In the sense you're talking about the signals passing through the cable as representing digital information, that's all fine - no problem with that.
However, just take off the digital hat for a second, and put on an analogue one for a second or two. Everything you have just talked about are analogue voltages, slewing aggressively, with all sorts of noise riding on top of it. Circuits electrically nearby don't know that any interference generated from that activity, intruding into their space, are meant to be digital, and can be safely ignored - just think of those digital signals as, say, something you might find in a radio transmission centre.
In the sense you're talking about the signals passing through the cable as representing digital information, that's all fine - no problem with that.
However, just take off the digital hat for a second, and put on an analogue one for a second or two. Everything you have just talked about are analogue voltages, slewing aggressively, with all sorts of noise riding on top of it. Circuits electrically nearby don't know that any interference generated from that activity, intruding into their space, are meant to be digital, and can be safely ignored - just think of those digital signals as, say, something you might find in a radio transmission centre.
I think you may have written your post while I wrote the first one - which admittedly does focus on the digital side. (Funnily enough, that's what the manufacturer claims is improved by their cable.)
As for analogue interference - interference through conductors is ruled out by isolation, so that leaves radiation. I unfortunately lack a spectrum analyzer, but I'm pretty sure that interference from your nearest radio station and your neighbour's WiFi is going to be much worse than anything a 5m Ethernet cable (carrying data) can ever radiate.
As for analogue interference - interference through conductors is ruled out by isolation, so that leaves radiation. I unfortunately lack a spectrum analyzer, but I'm pretty sure that interference from your nearest radio station and your neighbour's WiFi is going to be much worse than anything a 5m Ethernet cable (carrying data) can ever radiate.
Advocacy, without examination, is also prejudice.
The present discord centers around qualifying/quantifying the examination.
Digital signals flying around from place to place can be thought of as a series of numbers..placards if you will...........A typed number 61 on a 3 by 5 card is just as valid as a scrap of TP written by a child, in crayon...the number 61
___________________________________________________Rick.............
___________________________________________________Rick.............
I'm glad some people live in a world where all electrons know exactly how to behave themselves; the fundamental particles there have read all the required textbooks, and never venture outside their designated playgrounds ...
It's like the ones who read the schematic, and know that a nice, straight line drawn anywhere always means that they will traverse a perfect conductor at this point ... 🙂
It's like the ones who read the schematic, and know that a nice, straight line drawn anywhere always means that they will traverse a perfect conductor at this point ... 🙂
more hyperbole that completely sidesteps the point, to attempt to make things more complicated and allude to some sort of hard earned personal enlightenment, but of course if we study the teachings of Monsieur Frank and Monsieur John, we will find further enlightenment.
the hyperbole would of course be somewhat more meaningful, if it were the actual electrons that contained the signal. or if those electrons and their predictable journey had anything to do with the correctness of the signal transfer whatsoever.
myself, I find that although my mains does vary during the day, something in the order of 10V, with sufficient regulation (I do tend to go a bit overboard) and proper common mode filtering, it doesnt impact on my audio quality.
I dont need to reinvent the wheel, just be mindful of the noise and ripple where it matters. I cant control the quality of power I receive aside from grabbing an isolation transformer, which i'm considering for my measurement rig/ADC, so concentrating on controlling effects I can identify is much more productive than inventing new and varied things to worry about.
the hyperbole would of course be somewhat more meaningful, if it were the actual electrons that contained the signal. or if those electrons and their predictable journey had anything to do with the correctness of the signal transfer whatsoever.
myself, I find that although my mains does vary during the day, something in the order of 10V, with sufficient regulation (I do tend to go a bit overboard) and proper common mode filtering, it doesnt impact on my audio quality.
I dont need to reinvent the wheel, just be mindful of the noise and ripple where it matters. I cant control the quality of power I receive aside from grabbing an isolation transformer, which i'm considering for my measurement rig/ADC, so concentrating on controlling effects I can identify is much more productive than inventing new and varied things to worry about.
Last edited:
Comparatively speaking within the category, I like audio snake oil vendors. They are just minor villains; they cause no harm other than to one's wallet.
At this very moment, many thousands are poisoning themselves with bleech, because the same faculty for acceptance of unfounded theory leads them to believe sites like this one Miracle Mineral :: Home
At this very moment, many thousands are poisoning themselves with bleech, because the same faculty for acceptance of unfounded theory leads them to believe sites like this one Miracle Mineral :: Home
The challenged party has the choice of weapon, I choose six buckets of Mayo.
(SY may view it's pus intended)
speaking of which, anyone considered lobbying for the compulsory use of voodoo devices during the recording process? I'm mean, the same damage is done to the electrons there.
Yes, that's precisely the attitude to have. If you're satisfied with the quality of reproduction you're getting then there's no need to delve further.
However, I've realised that I can achieve higher levels of realism and satisfaction from what are generally regarded as poor recordings, than what most people would think possible. But this can only come about if I do worry about the finer points - therefore for me it's worthwhile persisting in these areas ...
I can't sell them, because you'd want to know how they work. I have no clue.
(let's see who falls into this trap!)
jan
- Status
- Not open for further replies.