Damping shifts tone downwards...heavy and sluggish. just my observation. now you confuse things the role of the plinth is NOT to shield the TT from the environment. The plinth is the connection between the platter and the arm. Its part of the sonic structure of the TT. The pinth is as important to the tone of the TT as the platter and the arm also important is that the bearing is completely silent and the motor is running totally smooth and well isolated.. if you dampen the plinth you simply drain the energy from the cartridge.
Last edited:
A plinth is mostly there to keep the arm, bearing and motor in a geometrically stable relationship, surely it's just easier to do away with it altogether. After all there are other ways of achieving that stable geometric relationship between the parts, as indeed Simon Yorke does very nicely.
I worked a bit for Amazon Audio.
My method is to put the needle into the grove.
I then excite the plinth with a weight from lead (can be some other metal) that hangs on a long string.
I then measure the output of the cartridge and make an FFT.
My method is to put the needle into the grove.
I then excite the plinth with a weight from lead (can be some other metal) that hangs on a long string.
I then measure the output of the cartridge and make an FFT.
How do know if the FFT sounds good.. dead, bad or.. only our ears can tell. The test with the transient is very remote from the vibrations induced by the motion of the cartridge.
Pseudo science is what we try to quantify. What is the difference on a good guitar and a bad one..??
I think we have much to learn from the instrument builders and to think a little about how we perceive things.
Pseudo science is what we try to quantify. What is the difference on a good guitar and a bad one..??
I think we have much to learn from the instrument builders and to think a little about how we perceive things.
I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.
The plinth is to support the turntable, add nothing and take away nothing (except unwanted vibrations)
Damping will lower the resonance frequency by a very small (insignificant) amount, but will not make the sound heavy and sluggish, whatever that means.
The role of the plinth is to support the parts of the turntable, but if we want decent sound, its secondary role is to damp vibrations which can otherwise make the sound less clear.
No matter how much a plinth is damped, it will not drain energy from the cartridge. It will convert energy from the turntable mechanicals, from seismic and aerial intrusions into low grade heat, and maintain the essential spacial integrity between stylus/cartridge/arm and platter bearing/platter and recorded disc.
Last edited:
Don't want to fight about this, you can have your beliefs, if I can have mine. I know my path as it has been for the Last 10 years in this funny business.
If you had a perfectly damped guitar you would only have the sound from the f-hole and nothing produced from the body and we would all agree that this would kill a guitar or any other wooden instruments sound. Same with a piano or even a wind instruments output from the metallic body. But to say that I want the sounds from an album to come from the plinth and not only from what was recorded on the vinyl sounds completely wrong to me. The plinth should not add anything to the movement of the cartridge, that is adding sounds that just don't belong, a secondary source of sound from a time delayed source that is modulating the cartridge makes no sense at all.
I am in agreement with those that say the plinth is there for only one purpose and that is to hold all the components in alignment without adding or subtracting any movement of the stylus. If you are adding coloration you are changing the original intent of the musician or the recording engineer. If that is what you want use a single ended tube amplifier and have all the euphonic noise you could ever ask for!
I am in agreement with those that say the plinth is there for only one purpose and that is to hold all the components in alignment without adding or subtracting any movement of the stylus. If you are adding coloration you are changing the original intent of the musician or the recording engineer. If that is what you want use a single ended tube amplifier and have all the euphonic noise you could ever ask for!
Well, i do not know what to say.
I build my last turntable over 30 years ago.
It is still playing today at a friend.
It is made from a sandwich of Terazzo, steel and acrylic.
It looks like a truncated pyramid.
It is rather big and heavy. The motor is a Papst direct drive from a Dual turntable, so is the the platter. There is a Kyocera ceramic mat and on top of that a leather mat.
There is a Kenwood record weight and outer ring that flattens the record. The arm is a 12 inch SAEC with knife edge bearing. The cartridge is a Benz.
Maybe i can persuade my fried to make a photo. That was certainly a heavy mass, sandwich, high stiffness design.
You can jump on the floor and nothing happens.
It sounds better then his Malkolm Hawsford designed DA converter. That converter was designed for SME but never hit the market.
I build my last turntable over 30 years ago.
It is still playing today at a friend.
It is made from a sandwich of Terazzo, steel and acrylic.
It looks like a truncated pyramid.
It is rather big and heavy. The motor is a Papst direct drive from a Dual turntable, so is the the platter. There is a Kyocera ceramic mat and on top of that a leather mat.
There is a Kenwood record weight and outer ring that flattens the record. The arm is a 12 inch SAEC with knife edge bearing. The cartridge is a Benz.
Maybe i can persuade my fried to make a photo. That was certainly a heavy mass, sandwich, high stiffness design.
You can jump on the floor and nothing happens.
It sounds better then his Malkolm Hawsford designed DA converter. That converter was designed for SME but never hit the market.
Last edited:
Miklos,
thanks for the comment.
Joachim,
It sounds like you did everything within your powers to make a very rigid and inert platform for that turntable and took all other methods to damp any external vibrations to the vinyl and introduction of any extraneous vibrations into the entire assembly. This is what I would think is the ideal in a turntable.
thanks for the comment.
Joachim,
It sounds like you did everything within your powers to make a very rigid and inert platform for that turntable and took all other methods to damp any external vibrations to the vinyl and introduction of any extraneous vibrations into the entire assembly. This is what I would think is the ideal in a turntable.
Yes, that is what i thought when i was 20. I can not believe how long that is ago.
I think that is still good reasoning and it is still going strong, so the design is very stable and long living.
Today i would make it more compact but we already have the heavy platter.....
I think that is still good reasoning and it is still going strong, so the design is very stable and long living.
Today i would make it more compact but we already have the heavy platter.....
Joachim, yes now you're on my track .... this is an interesting platform depth and need much time - and money to experience. Finding your lacquer is a world apart.
I did a lot of research how to lacquer speaker membranes so i know quite a bit,
but my philosophy is not to find a particular miraculous sound. I want to increase the speed of sound and make the response more extended and linear. Also reduce distortion.
but my philosophy is not to find a particular miraculous sound. I want to increase the speed of sound and make the response more extended and linear. Also reduce distortion.
There seems, to me, to be an element of confusion with regard to defining what the role of the plinth is and this is complicated by a lack of definition as to what actually constitutes 'the plinth'.
I would divide the plinth in to two distinct, and separate, elements; 1/ the chassis, or sub-chassis and 2/ the 'plinth'. The chassis connects the arm and the platter and holds them in stable geometric relation to each other, it also terminates them. The plinth is what the whole mechanism of the deck is mounted on, or in.
In some turntables the plinth and the chassis are essentially one; in that there is no separate chassis element and everything is mounted to the one single structure. In other turntables there is no plinth, although it could be argued that whatever the turntable and motor sit on becomes the plinth.
I would divide the plinth in to two distinct, and separate, elements; 1/ the chassis, or sub-chassis and 2/ the 'plinth'. The chassis connects the arm and the platter and holds them in stable geometric relation to each other, it also terminates them. The plinth is what the whole mechanism of the deck is mounted on, or in.
In some turntables the plinth and the chassis are essentially one; in that there is no separate chassis element and everything is mounted to the one single structure. In other turntables there is no plinth, although it could be argued that whatever the turntable and motor sit on becomes the plinth.
ynwoan,
I can accept your terminology, I am no expert on that but it sounds realistic to define the chassis verses the plinth that way. At the same time we seem to have the two camps of a single chassis/plinth design where there is no separation, they are one in the same, and the two piece system whether the chassis is mounted on springs or even some form of elastic mount to isolate one from the other.
So I would then have to say we need to understand each application to understand how the words are applied. I guess we are all guilty then of using the words interchangeably. English will do that to a sentence.
But I will still hold to my original concept that the chassis, the part that attaches the tonearm, platter and perhaps motor should not add or subtract from the alignment of the entire assembly. Vibration isolation will have to be a consideration in the entire assembly, but that is what I think that we are attempting to achieve in the many iterations that we have already seen shown by Joachim. Isolation of vibration by use of a magnetic bearing support and others withstanding we still have to keep the absolute alignment accurate and unchanging between the tonearm and the moving platter.
I can accept your terminology, I am no expert on that but it sounds realistic to define the chassis verses the plinth that way. At the same time we seem to have the two camps of a single chassis/plinth design where there is no separation, they are one in the same, and the two piece system whether the chassis is mounted on springs or even some form of elastic mount to isolate one from the other.
So I would then have to say we need to understand each application to understand how the words are applied. I guess we are all guilty then of using the words interchangeably. English will do that to a sentence.
But I will still hold to my original concept that the chassis, the part that attaches the tonearm, platter and perhaps motor should not add or subtract from the alignment of the entire assembly. Vibration isolation will have to be a consideration in the entire assembly, but that is what I think that we are attempting to achieve in the many iterations that we have already seen shown by Joachim. Isolation of vibration by use of a magnetic bearing support and others withstanding we still have to keep the absolute alignment accurate and unchanging between the tonearm and the moving platter.
The Cotter is a good example of eliminating any outside vibrations that would color what you want out of your favorite MC. That tiny little needle is going up against a huge wall!
The thinking that a guitar generates a synergistic combination to produce what it does so well is not what you want out of your MC, or maybe you do..
If that is so, then one should remove all damping from the tonearm, make the platter ring, plinth made out sheet metal etc. so it fashions itself like our example, the guitar. Is this what you really want? Or are you saying its impossible to really eliminate all excitations so lets make it sympathetic.
If one could bolt a cartridge to a 10 pound lead weight and get it to float across the record without an issue, then maybe we might actually hear what the cartridge is capable of. If this sounds like a formula for dead sound then you have the wrong cartridge
The thinking that a guitar generates a synergistic combination to produce what it does so well is not what you want out of your MC, or maybe you do..
If that is so, then one should remove all damping from the tonearm, make the platter ring, plinth made out sheet metal etc. so it fashions itself like our example, the guitar. Is this what you really want? Or are you saying its impossible to really eliminate all excitations so lets make it sympathetic.
If one could bolt a cartridge to a 10 pound lead weight and get it to float across the record without an issue, then maybe we might actually hear what the cartridge is capable of. If this sounds like a formula for dead sound then you have the wrong cartridge
The original Linn was that to a certain degree.
I measured it and it was a bit too fast and it had some reverberation.
That can enhance sound, see the Burween Bobcat.
No i do not want that.
I want Mastertape sound.
One can add tubes or whatever.
Sound is subjective in the end and when it sounds great and i can forget about the HiFi it is fine for me, whatever flaws the system has technically.
On the other hand it is fascinating to have a neutral reference, if that is possible.
The problem with enhanced sound is that i can get boring over time.
The same favorite food EVERY day if you will.
I measured it and it was a bit too fast and it had some reverberation.
That can enhance sound, see the Burween Bobcat.
No i do not want that.
I want Mastertape sound.
One can add tubes or whatever.
Sound is subjective in the end and when it sounds great and i can forget about the HiFi it is fine for me, whatever flaws the system has technically.
On the other hand it is fascinating to have a neutral reference, if that is possible.
The problem with enhanced sound is that i can get boring over time.
The same favorite food EVERY day if you will.
In the early 80th i had a Goldmund Studio but not with the linear tracker.
My combination was a Fidelity Research arm and a Van den Hul EMT.
I was very happy with that combination until i got the Platine Verdier.
That was and is in a class of its own.
Maybe the Spiral Groove SG 1.1 is even more neutral and the Forsell Airforce One is more spectacular but i would still be happy with it.
Google-Ergebnis für http://www.oocities.org/de/bc1a69/studio.jpg
My combination was a Fidelity Research arm and a Van den Hul EMT.
I was very happy with that combination until i got the Platine Verdier.
That was and is in a class of its own.
Maybe the Spiral Groove SG 1.1 is even more neutral and the Forsell Airforce One is more spectacular but i would still be happy with it.
Google-Ergebnis für http://www.oocities.org/de/bc1a69/studio.jpg
- Status
- Not open for further replies.