I don't think that PHL data are shamefull.
Any time i have been checking their T/S i found them to be in very good agreement with specs.
This company doesn't want to publish frequency response curves, in their own right to do so. I pesonally think that frequency response curves are only necessary when a potential user should be warned against an atypical behaviour of the driver like sharp breakup modes, or huge damping. I found PHL drivers to be even handed drivers in their ranges/sizes. So no problem with this.
They don't publish THD measurements either. But among the companies which do publish them, very little if any gives any information regarding how theses measurements have been made. PHL is more useful and warns the user that some of their drivers are more oriented to high spl pa use, while others might be apt for somewhat more delicate purposes...😀
Any time i have been checking their T/S i found them to be in very good agreement with specs.
This company doesn't want to publish frequency response curves, in their own right to do so. I pesonally think that frequency response curves are only necessary when a potential user should be warned against an atypical behaviour of the driver like sharp breakup modes, or huge damping. I found PHL drivers to be even handed drivers in their ranges/sizes. So no problem with this.
They don't publish THD measurements either. But among the companies which do publish them, very little if any gives any information regarding how theses measurements have been made. PHL is more useful and warns the user that some of their drivers are more oriented to high spl pa use, while others might be apt for somewhat more delicate purposes...😀
I'm currently writing a few data sheets. So this thread is a good reminder.
I promise the best sheets you never did see!
I promise the best sheets you never did see!
Inductor:
Very good point! Yet another example of something that could easily be included but never is.
It does touch on the point of blindly following datasheets as though they are a guarantee that the driver will perform exactly as depicted. I know a few people here have mentioned that there is indeed variance in these parameters, and I fully understand and appreciate that.
I don't think that publishing more data on a datasheet somehow implies that drivers will be built to better tolerances. I know there's a reasonable tolerance that has to exist in every electromechanical device, and that it's always best to measure your actual units to ensure your design is correct.
The important thing overall is that the basic data required to make a good decision really ought to be provided by the manufacturer. A manufacturer should not expect every potential client to buy up 12 different drivers and measure each one to find the best fit for their design.
GDO:
Any datasheet that doesn't have something as basic as frequency response, is indeed shameful. Although it's entirely within their right to put whatever information they want on their datasheet, omitting data does nothing but damage the industry as a whole and puts more onus on each customer, which is fundamentally wrong. It breeds an industry of deceit and mistrust, and the audio world is already full of that.
Think about the simple logistics of what you're proposing. In order to provide the correct data, a manufacturer only has to measure the driver and compile the data once so that hundreds of their clients can see the results and make an informed decision. If that responsibility is forced onto the customer, then the same driver will now need to be measured hundreds of times to obtain the same result. Add to this the fact that every customer now needs to measure and test a dozen drivers to find the right fit, and you have thousands of measurements being done when just one would have sufficed.
Would you buy a car without knowing its fuel mileage or horsepower? Would you buy a transistor without knowing its rated current and voltage? We rely on the manufacturers of those items to provide that data so we can make educated decision and buy a product that meets out needs. When a manufacturer doesn't provide required information, they're forcing you to buy a product that likely won't meet your needs, and that's bad business.
Getting the TS parameters correct on their datasheets is not something PHL deserves a pat on the back for. It's actually the very least one would expect.
Mark:
Do those datasheets up well! It only takes a few manufacturers to set the bar high enough, and others will be forced to follow suit, or risk not being taken seriously. I can appreciate how much work goes into a good datasheet, but I really appreciate how work a good datasheet can save!
Cheers,
Owen
Very good point! Yet another example of something that could easily be included but never is.
It does touch on the point of blindly following datasheets as though they are a guarantee that the driver will perform exactly as depicted. I know a few people here have mentioned that there is indeed variance in these parameters, and I fully understand and appreciate that.
I don't think that publishing more data on a datasheet somehow implies that drivers will be built to better tolerances. I know there's a reasonable tolerance that has to exist in every electromechanical device, and that it's always best to measure your actual units to ensure your design is correct.
The important thing overall is that the basic data required to make a good decision really ought to be provided by the manufacturer. A manufacturer should not expect every potential client to buy up 12 different drivers and measure each one to find the best fit for their design.
GDO:
Any datasheet that doesn't have something as basic as frequency response, is indeed shameful. Although it's entirely within their right to put whatever information they want on their datasheet, omitting data does nothing but damage the industry as a whole and puts more onus on each customer, which is fundamentally wrong. It breeds an industry of deceit and mistrust, and the audio world is already full of that.
Think about the simple logistics of what you're proposing. In order to provide the correct data, a manufacturer only has to measure the driver and compile the data once so that hundreds of their clients can see the results and make an informed decision. If that responsibility is forced onto the customer, then the same driver will now need to be measured hundreds of times to obtain the same result. Add to this the fact that every customer now needs to measure and test a dozen drivers to find the right fit, and you have thousands of measurements being done when just one would have sufficed.
Would you buy a car without knowing its fuel mileage or horsepower? Would you buy a transistor without knowing its rated current and voltage? We rely on the manufacturers of those items to provide that data so we can make educated decision and buy a product that meets out needs. When a manufacturer doesn't provide required information, they're forcing you to buy a product that likely won't meet your needs, and that's bad business.
Getting the TS parameters correct on their datasheets is not something PHL deserves a pat on the back for. It's actually the very least one would expect.
Mark:
Do those datasheets up well! It only takes a few manufacturers to set the bar high enough, and others will be forced to follow suit, or risk not being taken seriously. I can appreciate how much work goes into a good datasheet, but I really appreciate how work a good datasheet can save!
Cheers,
Owen
The "Chinese" and the cartels (paying more for less quality) are not going to like it... (more data). They prefer to sell (by the pound) their bad engineered products with "surprises" for the customer all over the year.
Some people or business think they can let go the ethics and give up a good relationship with the client because of the economic crisis and competition from cheaper products consistently.
Some people or business think they can let go the ethics and give up a good relationship with the client because of the economic crisis and competition from cheaper products consistently.
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I really like when they put out information on finished speakers designs with examples (or kits) for the enclosures, crossovers and drivers; Fostex, Beyma, JBL-Selenium, Eton, Dynaudio, Visaton, Pi Speakers-Eminence... with datasheets. Some good technical development, of new drivers, with it's inherent (diy) market can be made with good synergies for both. It's money well spend and new technology or new driver series/improvements for everybody.
... fake european stuff.😀
And some customers buy that stuff like they buy fake Gucci sunglasses of fake Prada leather bags...
I totaly agree with anyone that started this thread. I'll explain why.
Being sick and tired of buying drivers that do not live up to their expectations, whether declared in datasheets or not, I believe that there should be standardisation of most important parameters. I personally built a small graveyard of nonusable drivers over the years. If it's not up to few enthusiasts (Zaph, Mark K etc) and a few connections with some factories in Europe, I think I would own even more nonusable drivers. For every driver there should be (at least) distortion&polar measurement, on different levels of drive, and Klippel (which is used in every respectable factory) to differentiate between products.
In current situation, a customer is left with few parameters to rely upon, and they are in tolerance of 10-20%. What can you do with that? Buy a ton of drivers and get angry with at least 50% of manufacturers for selling crap that is not advertised as one?
Being sick and tired of buying drivers that do not live up to their expectations, whether declared in datasheets or not, I believe that there should be standardisation of most important parameters. I personally built a small graveyard of nonusable drivers over the years. If it's not up to few enthusiasts (Zaph, Mark K etc) and a few connections with some factories in Europe, I think I would own even more nonusable drivers. For every driver there should be (at least) distortion&polar measurement, on different levels of drive, and Klippel (which is used in every respectable factory) to differentiate between products.
In current situation, a customer is left with few parameters to rely upon, and they are in tolerance of 10-20%. What can you do with that? Buy a ton of drivers and get angry with at least 50% of manufacturers for selling crap that is not advertised as one?
=
+1 on this statement. Manufacturers such as B&C and PHL sell FAR more to OEM and pro audio than diy. I know this because I work in pro audio and my friend is a distributor for them..
Just look how many Nexo & L-Acoustics cabs are out there with their drivers in (Nexo PS15, L-Acoustics V-DOSC,ARCS etc.)
ATC is a company selling end-user products - mostly pro-audio loudspeakers (and a few "tamed down" home products,incl. electronics).
They aren't very keen on selling bare driver units to hobbyists (or anyone for that matter), so perhaps that explains their lack of info.
They just build their drivers in-house and use them on their own loudspeakers (and a couple of other companies - but they aren't very keen on that either).
Anyway, I would trust independent measurements conducted by, say, Zaph more than any Datasheet.
They aren't very keen on selling bare driver units to hobbyists (or anyone for that matter), so perhaps that explains their lack of info.
They just build their drivers in-house and use them on their own loudspeakers (and a couple of other companies - but they aren't very keen on that either).
Anyway, I would trust independent measurements conducted by, say, Zaph more than any Datasheet.
My experience has probably been a bit more sheltered but as a result better overall. While I have not built a large number of speaker systems in my short years, I can say, that pretty much all of my business has been with partsexpress over those years.
Back when I built my first set of speakers on buyout from them, they gave me enough useful specifications for my ability at the time, but it was not complete (about 10 years ago). Over the years, I have continued to keep an eye on available products there, and have simulated numerous drivers that they sell. I have noticed a major increase in the available information available about drivers through those years (available as links to data sheets).
What I have noticed is that, for most of the more reputable brands they carry, including their in-house brand "dayton," the spec sheet availability and detail has improved dramatically over the last decade.
I guess what I am saying is, things are getting better. Partsexpress is operating as a service oriented reseller that goes to great lengths to provide exceptional product information at a click when available.
Back when I built my first set of speakers on buyout from them, they gave me enough useful specifications for my ability at the time, but it was not complete (about 10 years ago). Over the years, I have continued to keep an eye on available products there, and have simulated numerous drivers that they sell. I have noticed a major increase in the available information available about drivers through those years (available as links to data sheets).
What I have noticed is that, for most of the more reputable brands they carry, including their in-house brand "dayton," the spec sheet availability and detail has improved dramatically over the last decade.
I guess what I am saying is, things are getting better. Partsexpress is operating as a service oriented reseller that goes to great lengths to provide exceptional product information at a click when available.
It's not a reason to produce poor data sheets, I was just agreeing with the fact that the DIY market is a tiny portion of their business.
Many of the OEM drivers are made to meet the speaker manufacturers requirements rather than from a standard 'off the shelf' range though..
ATC also has a range of 21 PA drivers which, I have to assume since they do not make PA systems, they quite happily sell to third parties.
I agree 100% with the original poster, quite why companies don't provide you with the extra details is beyond me. Going the extra mile only encourages you to buy their products, unless of course they aren't worth buying, which might be a good reason why some manufacturers don't post the full range of data. SEAS used to provide distortion measurements, but for some reason stopped doing so.
Those measures are not necessarily more accurate, just measured on a different part of the curve. The numbers i get with a typical amatuer kit are broadlu similar to Zaph's, but i almost always start with the factory numbers, which, usually taken with 1 of the 2 standard T/S tools give numbers that i feel are more realistic to the levels typically used when listening. I also design boxes to be tolerant of changing parameters as the wick is turned up.
dave
T/S parameters are nor scalar, thay are f(drive, weather) -- probably more independent variables but those are a big 2.
dave
dave
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