Choosing a 7.1 Soundcard for Active Crossovers

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#21
Mark_A_W said:
I now have a working setup based on an ESI Prodigy 7.1 Hifi (formerly Audiotrak).

Crossover = Allocator.

Player = Foobar.

Allocator uses the Prodigy ASIO drivers.

Foobar uses ASIO4ALL or KS/WASAPI.

Internal Routing on the Prodigy card is used to send the sound coming in from Foobar (WDM) out to the Prodigy ASIO drivers where Allocator intercepts it. All sounds from the PC will go through the crossover.

I should be able to record impulse files (based on sine sweeps) using Rec_Imp as that uses ASIO4ALL and that is treated the same was as KS/WASAPI, coming in on the WDM line in the Prodigy routing.

In the routing the WDM OUT is turned OFF and wired to the ASIO IN. This means all sounds go through the crossver, unless set to use the Prodigy ASIO drivers, so only Allocator will use those drivers - quite simple really.
I wish my Xonar had internal routing.

Pros:

- It just works...when it works. Which is does once you have it all setup and don't fiddle.

- No need for external routing software such as console/VAC/Reaper.


Cons:

- 96khz doesn't work. 44.1khz and 48khz work, at up to 32 bit (24bit padded).
At 96khz the audio is all scratchy, I think the Prodigy ASIO drivers are faulty, they don't seem to buffer enough samples. This is not an Allocator issue, it happens when playing directly from Foobar or JRMC to the Prodigy ASIO drivers at 96khz.

- The Prodigy Hifi drivers are wickedly unstable. I must have gone through 50 BSODs in the last two days. Once you have it working it's fine, but changing sample rates, or bit depths usually results in a BSOD.



I can't comment on the sound quality yet, so far I am testing with 3 pairs of PC speakers. I'm ready to transfer over to proper speakers now (focal driver MTM with 4 x 15" Tempest IB sub).

It does work, and it was actually pretty easy...apart from the BSODs.

I've bitched to the ESI support e-mail about the ASIO 96khz issue and the severe instability of the drivers....I'm not holding my breath for a response..
Click to expand...

I noticed your using win7, very unstable drivers on the prodigy cards I hinted at this i think in an earlier post. The xp drivers are superior in fact i gave up on using win seven and use a cut down version of TinyXP for sound. Far more stable although i still do get the odd blue screen normally when i'm messing about. 96k and 192k drivers are stable although you may find that there are issues with the performance of your machine if you are using heavy duty active crossovers and parametric equalisations. Personally though i stick with 44100 to keep the audio chain the same from start to finish. You may want to consider resampling everything in foobar using sox or some other resampler to 44100.
 
#22
Thanks, but I have some 96khz material, so my end goal is to get this all working at 96khz. I'd actually like to resample in foobar to 96khz, and just run 96khz.

I'm loath to go back to XP, the audio architecture is much improved in Vista/W7.

It seems stable enough once I stop fiddling, I just wish they'd fixed the ASIO 96khz crackles.
 
#23
you can also look for a used RME HDSP9652, or HDSP9632 with the add on boards, these will give very high quality spdif outs and is easy to pirate the connector for the daughterboards and add your own type of outputs if you need something more specific.

the lynx are great sounding cards, canbt comment on a comparison though as have not heard the D2
 
#24
ether that or just throw in the towel and wait for the release of the new 8 channel ackodac with ESS9018, which with MCU has advanced control of onboard dac filters and soon wifi control via ipad or similar interface
 
#25
ESI Gigaport

The ESI Gigaport would be a super cheap way to try the ESI signal routing software for laptop users at $120. If only it had an analog in for the tv. To get usb or firewire with an analog and a digital in and 8 output channels, takes you all the way to the $550 ball park as those types of studio interfaces also have expensive mic preamps and multiple analog inputs we don't need.
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ESI - GIGAPORT HD
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If you could get by with 6 channels out, the ESI U46 XL at $170 might be pretty cool and has a mic input for measuring.
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ESI - U46 XL
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I wonder if their dac chips have a balanced V out that could be modified to run with a transformer direct out?
 
#26
If you can find one, Bluegears B-enspirer is the card to have for this purpose.
24/196. 4X AKM 4396. An external dac below $2000 will not work any better if
the signal is tapped after the dacs. Just a good coupling cap and all is fine.
I know this sounds like ** but thats what I experienced with that card. Modded
of course.A few TeddyRegs will work wonders.

Greets,
Klaus
 
#28
Might look at some of the semi-pro level, like e-mu. I have one that is also a A2D and mic preamp, but it is pretty good sonically.

I was not that impressed with my Audigy 2 even in stereo ( I use a cheap Chinese DAC with Wolfson chips instead).

As far as digital eq, one can't say if it is good or bad. It all depends on the algorithm. In theory, it can be time and phase coherent. Something no analog eq. can do. It does need to have a latency, so if syncing to video, then you need a delay on the video to sync. I have a hardware digital crossover/eq ( Bheringer) I use in my lab for speaker design. Useful tool, but not hi-fi. I use to to get me close and play what-if before I build passive crossovers.
 
#29
cuibono said:
Ahh, the journey continues.

For a while now, I've been using computers to do active XO/EQ duty, as well as music server, measurements, etc. I've gone through a bit of equipment as my needs change, and I'm still at it. In particular, I'm looking for a better soundcard, again. I've got a 3 way speaker, and planning on adding subs, so I need at least 8 channels of output.

I started out with a Delta 1010LT, as I was doing multichannel recording. It is a stable, easy to use card, but its S/N isn't all that. I got a Phonic firefly 302, which was garbage. I'm still using my EMU 0404 USB, although my power amp damaged its inputs..:sad: A year ago, I found out about the 'gamer' market of soundcards - lots of cheap, 5.1 or 7.1 type cards for gamers. I got the Asus Xonar D2 card, which has excellent specs. Unfortunately, it is not made with the DIY enthusiast in mind..

In particular, the D2 has various amounts of delay attached to each of its outputs, and no way to turn it off. It also has lots of garbage effects programed into the driver's software, difficulty working with other software, and buggy drivers. Also, although the D2 measures great, it has worse than average ground loop problems - aka, the computers ground noise is showing up at the amp - no good! The big one though is the different delays attached to each channel. I'm over it!

So here is what I'm looking for: 8 channel out (aka 7.1), no interfering garbage software effects, a line in, and decent measured specs (at least 90dB s/n or distortion.) Additionally, USB has a significant advantage, because you can buy a device that galvanically isolates the soundcard from the computer - a big plus!

There are a few possibilities - I'll be ordering this one today:
CompUSA.com | USB-SND8 | Sabrent USB-SND8 8-Channel Sound Box There are a couple more of these, from different makers, but they look to be exactly the same.

I'm interested in this one:
CompUSA.com | AZT-RAIDER | Auzentech X-Raider 7.1 Sound Card
and this one:
CompUSA.com | TBS-3304 | Turtle Beach Montego 7.1 PCI Sound Card Whtie Box
They are PCI (not usb), but are probably decently made.

Does anyone have any experience with any 7.1 cards used for active XO/EQ?

The other part of this journey, almost more frustrating, is the software end - I bought Allocator a while ago, but it was buggy and frustrating. I've since been using Reaper, which I love. I've just started using SoundEasy's 'Ultimate Equalizer', but I can't get it to play with the Xonar D2😡 Hence this thread. Honestly, I would go with an analog active XO/EQ if I could, but I've gotten into phase corrections, and can't go back...

Anyway, I'll post back when I get my new soundcard - hopefully its a good one!
Click to expand...

Hello Cuibono,
I came to this thread just because I started exploring the rout you already went through. I am very impressed with what I read about Bodzio's Ultimate Eq.but what scares me is that I have to settle on not as good DACs and after DACs circuitry. I have been using and modding Behringer DCX last 5 - 6 years and I came to the point that I exchanged all that could be changed and raised it up to the point it really sounds good.

To answer your question, I am using RME Fireface 800 audio interface and it is exceptional unit. With that I recently got ALLOCATOR just like Mark suggested. It is very decent setup, but soundwise not as good like my modded Behringer. Also Allocator does not have all cappabilities like UE and I do not think they will be developed. UE is still in my mind the ultimate software, but as far as I see Bohdan is not too keen on developing ASIO support. At the same time Allocator works flowlesly with RME ASIO drivers. RME has one of the best and most stable software outhere.

I think the dream comes through unit in the future will be DSP machine where you could upload UE adjustments with best in class digital input - clock and 4 DACs with cappability of modding.

RME makes card that has multiple digital outs, but I am really not sure that is the best way to go around since than we will need to sync cloks. Still that rout is better than what average sound card could offer.
 
#31
One Word... Firewire

Get yourself a firewire 800 card, that will open up prosound outputs like the fireface.

Long time ago, this combo was recommended for its low latency, no digital garbage, and more than acceptable sounds (in addition to software driven routing that you specify yourself) that enables bit perfect outputs that you desire.

The crossover with the fireface is developed as a loopback convolver as far as I understand, but others have followed this route.

Of course this is missing the obvious Behringer DCX2496 Ultracurve, if you're not happy doing the decomposition work yourself to develop a convolver filter.

Find a loaner or two, and try some things out.


Owen
 
#33
bobodioulasso said:
Minidsp is imho is a solution worth to think about.
MiniDSP
Click to expand...

MiniDSP seems to be an excellent concept but performance wise not strong enough, at least by my opinion. It gives out only 48 KHz sampling, which excludes 96 KHz and 192 KHz. Another question is - how do you integrate software such as Ultimate EQ or Allocator? Crossover plug in provided by mini DSP is rudimentary compared to Ultimate EQ.

We are at the beggining of the era where DSP units will make life very exciting, particularly for speaker builders in need of phase perfect crossover. So far, that I am aware off, only Ultimate Eq, by Bodzio software did the complete job. It allows me to measure speaker response, and than, by applying the negative mirror of the response create perfect, ruller flat, response. That is the main advantage of UE over Allocator, where user has to manually, through EQ settings, mimic dips and valleys in order to create the flat line. The good part in Allocator is that user is aided by the spraker response import feature, for the visual preview of raw and corrected response.

Now where are the problems? In current version Bodzio doesn't suport ASIO drivers and as far as I know is limited to 48 KHz. UE is in it's version 1.0 but I am aware as the fact that Bohdan is preparing vers 2.0 to be sold as a stand alone software with many more features, hopfully with support for ASIO. He is very good in developing upgrades just like what he does in Sound Easy.

The second problem is what interface to use, and this is the subject of this thread. My strong advice would go for pro cards, such as RME, but even than, quality in the analog output is not comparable with the best DACs - mostly opamps in the ouput there. The other option is as someone mentioned earlier, RME card with digital outs. In that case the utmost attention has to be given to sync all the clocks to outboard DACs.

In stand alone scenario, DSP - 32 or even better 64 bit and with enough memory is needed. Keep in mind that DSP has to be in higher bit order than DACs, that is why increased bits.Than ideally I2S outs, and on the top of that cappability of uploading UE software to it. Than 8 DACS (4 stereo) in the same housing, with proper clocking.

Now that I think of that, my modded Behringer DCX2496 has all of that, Dual 32 bit SHARC processors, AKM 4396 DACs and in my moddded output Lundahl transformer with jFET buffers . All that I need is to hack into software and upload UE software. Well in another life, I am not software developer, but here is an idea for the cappable ones.
 
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#36
qusp said:
you can also look for a used RME HDSP9652, or HDSP9632 with the add on boards, these will give very high quality spdif outs and is easy to pirate the connector for the daughterboards and add your own type of outputs if you need something more specific.
Click to expand...

Also check out the RME HDSP AIO. It has a stereo input associated with a high quality ADC, as well as two independent stereo spdif outputs. That is all you need for a stereo two way active speaker system. Also the analog input allows you to access your older analog playback equipment - very handy. They aren't cheap, but on the other hand you are not wasting money on redundant Spdif or analog channels that you don't need if you aren't using it primarily for recording. Most of the high quality lynx and rme stuff have you paying for things you don't actually need for a htpc. Not this. I just ordered one.

I should add that it has two independent analog stereo outputs if you include the headphone output. Useful if you don't use outboard dacs.
 
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#37
This is latest and greatest and it might be solution for all we are trying to do here. Check this out. I know I will definitely go in this direction. I am also aware of one commercial project trying to do the same. Lately, there are lot of talks about asynchronous USB and all that I heard about it was very positive. Many of us really would prefer I2S over S/PDIF, but accepted S/PDIF when something else did not exist. This new approach might be a game changer for some.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digi...i-channel-asynchronous-usb-i2s-interface.html

www.exadevices.com > Home
 
#38
yeah looks great for the transport end, but dsp needs to be sorted for eq, room and driver correction and needs some way of loading and storing the files in hardware rom. acko is working on something similar and i've got him thinking along the lines of dsp. either that, or could just have dsp for xo and still use a convolver to do correction. i prefer the idea of having it all in the one device and in hardware personally so the load is taken off the computer and speed will be much better with hardware dsp, so very steep slopes will be possible.

acko already has all the dac hardware sorted out, so i guess its a race to the dsp
 
#39
qusp said:
yeah looks great for the transport end, but dsp needs to be sorted for eq, room and driver correction and needs some way of loading and storing the files in hardware rom. acko is working on something similar and i've got him thinking along the lines of dsp. either that, or could just have dsp for xo and still use a convolver to do correction. i prefer the idea of having it all in the one device and in hardware personally so the load is taken off the computer and speed will be much better with hardware dsp, so very steep slopes will be possible.

acko already has all the dac hardware sorted out, so i guess its a race to the dsp
Click to expand...

Yes I agree that good DSP solution would be nice, but...
I have been looking around for it and so far it doesn't exist, or what is there doesn't do it all. I would even settle on something less than ideal since what is out there doesn't promise much. I would be happy to find something that does measurement, speaker linearization and crossover. I even do not care much for room EQ so I could live quite fine without it. So far that is Allocator - software wise, but without measurement. So because of that I gave up on stand alone DSP and computer solution seems much more available and doable. And how things are looking nowdays the majority of my listening is computer based, so no point of trying to avoid that. And if that computer could be Mac, maybe Mac Mini, than I already have a cool remote as iPad, quiet machine without need to build one... I would say I am almost there.

So far what I see is the following combo: Mac Mini, Allocator, USB (ideally Firewire) multichannel out, three Acko DACs, discrete output, analog volume, amps, speakers. Things are changing fast these days and so far this is what I came up with that will do what I need. If USB multichannel out doesn't play well, than I might go for some RME card with AES outs. Again, DSP hardware would be nice, but I do not know for one.
 
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