I usually use 24/96, but unless the levels are way off, I can't hear the imposition of a 16/48. AFAIK, no one else has demonstrated that they can, either.
The signal IS recorded in these comparisons- in this case, as charges in a silicon array.
The signal IS recorded in these comparisons- in this case, as charges in a silicon array.
Redbook is 16/44.1 iirc... but whatever.
I understand your point, but I have never ever heard 16/44.1 sound like a live feed, to date. I think that the 24/192 (is that right?) has more potential in that regard.
As far as "demonstrating" anything, I'm not going there, since I think that so much is not well "demonstrated" by "tests". Otoh, tests are very valuable, but not dispositive in my view.
So, I guess on this topic you've cast ur vote! 😀
But have you ever heard "lifeless" or "souless" electronics?
And, also, btw, why (iirc) do you use 300B amps, and things like that??
I'm ok with it, but if you do that, I wonder why...
_-_-bear
I understand your point, but I have never ever heard 16/44.1 sound like a live feed, to date. I think that the 24/192 (is that right?) has more potential in that regard.
As far as "demonstrating" anything, I'm not going there, since I think that so much is not well "demonstrated" by "tests". Otoh, tests are very valuable, but not dispositive in my view.
So, I guess on this topic you've cast ur vote! 😀
But have you ever heard "lifeless" or "souless" electronics?
And, also, btw, why (iirc) do you use 300B amps, and things like that??
I'm ok with it, but if you do that, I wonder why...
_-_-bear
You seriously must have SY confused with someone else, maybe me? Last time I knew no 300B or SE amps in SY's stable. 😀
It's all the mic.'s fault -- can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em.
I've never heard a Mercury Living Presence sound "lifeless" or "soulless" ...annoying, yes, but not lifeless.
I've never heard a Mercury Living Presence sound "lifeless" or "soulless" ...annoying, yes, but not lifeless.
yes, I am easily confused as anyone who actually knows me can testify!
I thought that the elusive SY has designed toobe amps... but perhaps not.
That means, that no doubt he uses all opamp based electronics...
Or Krell... Maybe Self's "blameless" clones... oh gee, I have no idea.
Actually I am saying that it is NOT the mics fault at all... that is my main point.
(disregard horrid mics, bad mic technique and mic overloads...)
_-_-bear
PS. SY ur deftly sidestepping the question, the question is how the SOUND of said electronics appears to you subjectively. Please don't tell me that it all sounds the same??
I thought that the elusive SY has designed toobe amps... but perhaps not.
That means, that no doubt he uses all opamp based electronics...
Or Krell... Maybe Self's "blameless" clones... oh gee, I have no idea.
Actually I am saying that it is NOT the mics fault at all... that is my main point.
(disregard horrid mics, bad mic technique and mic overloads...)
_-_-bear
PS. SY ur deftly sidestepping the question, the question is how the SOUND of said electronics appears to you subjectively. Please don't tell me that it all sounds the same??
I'm not elusive- everyone knows where to find me, especially around our October Janfest time, when my house fills with diyAudio denizens, coming from many continents, with the sole purpose of laughing at my pitiful sound system.
I design my own electronics- no clones, no 300Bs, no reliance on just one technology. My electronics, like any other competent electronics, is orders of magnitude more neutral than the best transducers.
I design my own electronics- no clones, no 300Bs, no reliance on just one technology. My electronics, like any other competent electronics, is orders of magnitude more neutral than the best transducers.
Maybe part of the "problem" is, that when you're listening to recorded media,
the element of surprise is partially lost.
You already heard the live feed, which had the element of surprise, since it's the first time you've listened to it.
i think this is a fundamental difference between live music and listening to a recording.
Live music is a one-time event, a (digital) recording sounds exactly the same no matter how often you listen to it.
the element of surprise is partially lost.
You already heard the live feed, which had the element of surprise, since it's the first time you've listened to it.
i think this is a fundamental difference between live music and listening to a recording.
Live music is a one-time event, a (digital) recording sounds exactly the same no matter how often you listen to it.
Well a couple of things come to mind, first the signal is usually compressed relative the the sound at a live event (even when a compressor isn't used). When you listen back through a speaker system/ room, the transfer functions is going to be different that the space where the recording was made. The room modes, RT-60 of the room changes to frequency response, relative to the live event, the abscence of visual ques can have an effect on perception also.
A link below for an AES paper from the 70's about how audible differences between tubes transistors and op amps . Then there is sound levels and the Fletcher-Munson curves. And of course how the wavefore distorts when clipped, by a dynamic passage in the music....
http://milbert.com/Files/articles/TvsT/tstxt.pdf
Psychoacoustics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Perception and production of music - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.stokowski.org/Harvey Fletcher Bell Labs Recordings.htm
A link below for an AES paper from the 70's about how audible differences between tubes transistors and op amps . Then there is sound levels and the Fletcher-Munson curves. And of course how the wavefore distorts when clipped, by a dynamic passage in the music....
http://milbert.com/Files/articles/TvsT/tstxt.pdf
Psychoacoustics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Perception and production of music - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.stokowski.org/Harvey Fletcher Bell Labs Recordings.htm
Kevinh, I don't think you read the OP... go back please?
Kvholio, same comment, please read the original premise?
Novelty of the event is fine, but one could hear the "first presentation" as a recorded
playback, of course one can not go back to hear it live. But I am suggesting that if you had more or less continuous live feed, and someone switched to recorded, that chances are that you would notice something "different" about it. Maybe not. But maybe yes.
_-_-bear
_-_-
Kvholio, same comment, please read the original premise?
Novelty of the event is fine, but one could hear the "first presentation" as a recorded
playback, of course one can not go back to hear it live. But I am suggesting that if you had more or less continuous live feed, and someone switched to recorded, that chances are that you would notice something "different" about it. Maybe not. But maybe yes.
_-_-bear
_-_-
Bear, this is very interesting as it goes to the heart of the question "how good is a play back system" Normally the original event is not available to compare & anyway, it is almost universally agreed that it is not possible to recreate the live event sonics through an audio playback system. You take this back a step to the point where you are comparing the mike feed with the recorded playback & find that the two sound different.
So far only 1 person has not concurred with your observations. I'm suspicious of a system where the differences between 16/48 & 24/96 playback cannot be heard.
There must be others here that have also been involved with recording & can express their views/observations?
So far only 1 person has not concurred with your observations. I'm suspicious of a system where the differences between 16/48 & 24/96 playback cannot be heard.
There must be others here that have also been involved with recording & can express their views/observations?
Sorry I rambled, the Ear has a 144db dynamic range, no recording medium does. Beyond that engineers compress the dynamic range to avoid going past the 0db level with a digital recording (wonder how often dynamic peaks 'clip' the recording and what sorts of distortion does that produce, or in the case of a analog tape the tape heads saturate again limiting the dynamic peaks (though producing different distortion profile than maxing out a digital recording.
Sorta. The best human ears under extraordinary conditions, young person, can manage -5dB at the quiet end. More typically, 5-10dB, again only under very special conditions and at certain frequencies. After 120dB, there's major pain and physical damage.
With a typical QUIET room background of 25dB or so and mike self-noise (usually the same order of magnitude), that detectable dynamic range ends up being closer to 100dB. Not simultaneously, however; if there's a 100dB signal, the presence of a 30dB signal will not be noticed- try Bill Waslo's DiffMaker demonstration for a real eye-opener. Errrr, ear opener.
No argument about the dynamic range castration so popular in modern music production.
With a typical QUIET room background of 25dB or so and mike self-noise (usually the same order of magnitude), that detectable dynamic range ends up being closer to 100dB. Not simultaneously, however; if there's a 100dB signal, the presence of a 30dB signal will not be noticed- try Bill Waslo's DiffMaker demonstration for a real eye-opener. Errrr, ear opener.
No argument about the dynamic range castration so popular in modern music production.
I think that I explained that almost everyone has access to very live sound, all the time, 24/7? You just have to string up the mics and listen... 😀
Try it some time??
Another "ear opener", imo.
_-_-bear
Try it some time??
Another "ear opener", imo.
_-_-bear
Record a single instrument. Do as many tests as you like to make sure that source and speaker output are identical.
Now, listen a half foot from the speaker. Then two feet away. Four... Ten. And? Only the instrument itself can accurately reproduce how that instrument will sound at those given distances. And? Change rooms? The instrument's sound will also change.
So, adding something to the sound to give it more life? Harmonic synthesizing? If it produces a positive emotional response similar to when hearing live music? Or, a very nice emotional experience which is possible with live music? Enjoy...
Now, listen a half foot from the speaker. Then two feet away. Four... Ten. And? Only the instrument itself can accurately reproduce how that instrument will sound at those given distances. And? Change rooms? The instrument's sound will also change.
So, adding something to the sound to give it more life? Harmonic synthesizing? If it produces a positive emotional response similar to when hearing live music? Or, a very nice emotional experience which is possible with live music? Enjoy...
I know this. I have a lot of recording of Grateful Dead Concerts I attended. The recordings don't capture the dynamics of the live events (the complete Winterland 73 set for example that had the Wall of Sound system). The mix everything is different than being close to stage centerstage.
I can never separate where the losses occur, Is it the source or the room where I listen?
I think the room limitations (modifying the RT60 of the original venue) different freq response (my ears too 😀 ) and the compression relative to the sound system.
When we record we set an average level but when crescendo's occur how ofter are we over driving the recording media? In live performances I guess this happens a lot.
I can never separate where the losses occur, Is it the source or the room where I listen?
I think the room limitations (modifying the RT60 of the original venue) different freq response (my ears too 😀 ) and the compression relative to the sound system.
When we record we set an average level but when crescendo's occur how ofter are we over driving the recording media? In live performances I guess this happens a lot.
The "test" is not moving around, or anything like that...
kevinh... you happen to have an aud tape of the "mind left body jam" from Portland 73 (iirc), I have a board, need an aud desperately! 😀
Yes, the room plays a large part... most of us listen in rooms that are actually far too small meaning that the reverb time is far too short for optimum playback, imo.
_-_-bear
kevinh... you happen to have an aud tape of the "mind left body jam" from Portland 73 (iirc), I have a board, need an aud desperately! 😀
Yes, the room plays a large part... most of us listen in rooms that are actually far too small meaning that the reverb time is far too short for optimum playback, imo.
_-_-bear
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