Ahhhhh - so you are at the seat of the problem! jk
Actually, toyota didn't have a problem - it was user error.
Regardless, the legislation requires the item sold to be fit for purpose and of merchantable quality - in other words to do what it is intended for in the manner intended and to last for a reasonable period of time while doing so. The government obviously doesn't need to be aware of any detail except that the balance of knowledge is almost inevidibly tipped in the favour of the seller - the test of quality and fitness are specific to the issue that arises and eealt with on a case by case basis.
Speaker Cable lifters would be a doozy to test under this legislation!
I never did find any resolution to that - too many confusing reports. Did someone eventually get to the bottom of it? Got a link?
All couched in language so that lawyers can make plenty of money debating the fine nuances. I for one wouldn't say its reasonable for an iPod nano to only last as long as its internal (non-replaceable) battery. But that's just me...
I think that the balance of information has been that way historically, but that now its shifted. But nowhere do I see governments scaling back the size of their departments to reflect that shift - for clarity, that's the shift that waki has already alluded to.
Maybe you meant it as a joke, but I'm gonna call you on it, just for fun. How would they test em? And more to the point, why should they? Enough people want to buy them and have the cash to splash (I'm not one of them, just in case there's any doubt
)
I have had to improvise "cable lifters" in several engineering measurement applications
one was a 20KHz complex impedance measurement instrument for fluid conductivity - on the megaohm range the prototype's unshielded twisted pair wiring laying on a particle board/linoleum lab bench gave variable and low readings - put the wire, resistance box test load on 4" polyethylene foam blocks and I could get reproducible readings (also had to search out the noninductive cal boxes some were useless for AC, for the megaohm tests I used resistor strings and alligator clip "switching" - even the "good" cal boxes weren't adequate at 20KHz)
in another instance strain gage transducer cable with twisted pairs, overall braid which performed well in every other situation gave large 60 Hz noise on a concrete slab machine shop floor - lifting the cable off the concrete floor dropped the noise by >20 dB
those instances aside - I do believe loudspeaker cable lifters in a domestic environment are pretty silly given source/cable/load impedances - although it is amusing to an engineer that the lowest tier of "Audiophile" cables (Monster) are not twisted (nearly no added cost), "common centroid" 3-wire or star quad configuration but do tout "linear polyethylene dielectric"
one was a 20KHz complex impedance measurement instrument for fluid conductivity - on the megaohm range the prototype's unshielded twisted pair wiring laying on a particle board/linoleum lab bench gave variable and low readings - put the wire, resistance box test load on 4" polyethylene foam blocks and I could get reproducible readings (also had to search out the noninductive cal boxes some were useless for AC, for the megaohm tests I used resistor strings and alligator clip "switching" - even the "good" cal boxes weren't adequate at 20KHz)
in another instance strain gage transducer cable with twisted pairs, overall braid which performed well in every other situation gave large 60 Hz noise on a concrete slab machine shop floor - lifting the cable off the concrete floor dropped the noise by >20 dB
those instances aside - I do believe loudspeaker cable lifters in a domestic environment are pretty silly given source/cable/load impedances - although it is amusing to an engineer that the lowest tier of "Audiophile" cables (Monster) are not twisted (nearly no added cost), "common centroid" 3-wire or star quad configuration but do tout "linear polyethylene dielectric"
Last edited:
Hi aardvarkash10,
The real problem is getting any proper action out of any collection of humans. These days I believe that the industry has lost the right to exist. Any other organizations police themselves more or less effectively. If you bring shame on the industry (which ever one it is), you pretty much expect some action against yourself. Even lawyers are disbarred occasionally. Political members become a liability and get canned. There are examples all around in various professions.
I keep waiting for the industry as it is now to collapse, but it just keeps lumbering along - headless. I guess it's a cockroach.
Nope, the industry does not deserve to exist anymore. In fact, it doesn't. Anyone notice the lack of stereo shops around town? I don't think the public is that interested these days. For most people, sound has been reduced to a commodity now. 20 years ago, MP3 sound wouldn't be acceptable (Walkman tape players were not really acceptable either). Now the public will accept just about anything that makes noise. Once the market shrinks below some threshold, audio devices like Op Amps with improved performance will disappear. There isn't enough sales to support these parts. Same goes for audio output transistors, there will be a return for power devices built for servo systems and inverters. Nothing for audio (and there is a difference between these parts folks!). Maybe it's all dead, but no one told the industry at large.
-Chris
Thank you, that's exactly what I meant.
The real problem is getting any proper action out of any collection of humans. These days I believe that the industry has lost the right to exist. Any other organizations police themselves more or less effectively. If you bring shame on the industry (which ever one it is), you pretty much expect some action against yourself. Even lawyers are disbarred occasionally. Political members become a liability and get canned. There are examples all around in various professions.
I keep waiting for the industry as it is now to collapse, but it just keeps lumbering along - headless. I guess it's a cockroach.
What makes this situation so appalling is that the buyer is typically lied to from all media sources and "consultants" (that's what sales people are called today, isn't it?). There is no recourse for the newish owner of a piece of scrap these days.
Nope, the industry does not deserve to exist anymore. In fact, it doesn't. Anyone notice the lack of stereo shops around town? I don't think the public is that interested these days. For most people, sound has been reduced to a commodity now. 20 years ago, MP3 sound wouldn't be acceptable (Walkman tape players were not really acceptable either). Now the public will accept just about anything that makes noise. Once the market shrinks below some threshold, audio devices like Op Amps with improved performance will disappear. There isn't enough sales to support these parts. Same goes for audio output transistors, there will be a return for power devices built for servo systems and inverters. Nothing for audio (and there is a difference between these parts folks!). Maybe it's all dead, but no one told the industry at large.
-Chris
So I take it you're of the view that more and bigger government is the answer to our 'problem'. Can't say I agree off the get-go but I am open to persuasion.
Well then the market will kill it. That's evolution - no-one escapes evolution.
Well the current hot potato is the financial industry. Have they policed themselves more, or less effectively in your estimation?
An excellent example of evolutionary fitness. Even after humans have eradicated themselves from the planet, cockroaches will still be around. So no, I think your analogy misses the mark. Once humans have self-destructed sure as hell cockroaches won't be buying hi-end kit.
The financial industry is this, writ much larger.
I see you create your own 'facts' Chris. Unless by 'industry' you really meant 'hi-end retailing' in which case yeah, its doomed. But this thread isn't about the hi-end retail industry its about the hi-end audio (meaning manufacturing decent sounding, and/or relatively expensive) industry.
As an interesting aside, I attended a Seattle Opera Company production of Barber of Seville last Friday night. The director and producer were intelligent enough to portray the story as the vaudevillian pratfall it actually is. Very low humor. The Rossini score is gorgeous. The orchestra and company did an exemplary work of performance art,
The audience, predominately young adults, were obviously intent on enjoying the performance and the talk I heard during the single intermission, was concerned with the superb acoustics, performance and details concerning the orchestral music. Nothing I heard caused me to think any of the 20 to 40 year old folks were in any way lacking in interest in the musical values being presented.
Any one else in this group have any experiences like this?
Bud
The audience, predominately young adults, were obviously intent on enjoying the performance and the talk I heard during the single intermission, was concerned with the superb acoustics, performance and details concerning the orchestral music. Nothing I heard caused me to think any of the 20 to 40 year old folks were in any way lacking in interest in the musical values being presented.
Any one else in this group have any experiences like this?
Bud
unlike you Chris, I don't think the industry is dead, dying or even limping a little. I think its focus has shifted and broadened (digital and a/v being rthe main contributors) and the niche market possibilities presented by the internet have undermined the B&M locations and eroded their profitability.
I also don't believe the industry should police itself - I'm not aware of any other industry where this happens without a descent into protectionism.
There is a place for legislation to protect the consumer in transactions where even moderately expensive hi fi and the like is too low in value to warrant individual legal action that may cost $10k plus.
And certainly there is a place for a body with the required enforcement power to curtail deliberately (or even carelessly) false and misleading sales pitches since these have the potential to not only harm the individual consumer, but also the entire industry.
I also don't believe the industry should police itself - I'm not aware of any other industry where this happens without a descent into protectionism.
There is a place for legislation to protect the consumer in transactions where even moderately expensive hi fi and the like is too low in value to warrant individual legal action that may cost $10k plus.
And certainly there is a place for a body with the required enforcement power to curtail deliberately (or even carelessly) false and misleading sales pitches since these have the potential to not only harm the individual consumer, but also the entire industry.
AVE...
BudP, in my country the only people who visit opera houses are those, who either love opera or want to appear classy. The first group will actually act as experts on orchestral performance, acoustics and other opera-related subjects. The second group will act like audiophiles - even though they slept trough first act, they will form faulty and exaggerated opinions just to look classy (or snobby). From time to time there would be few (un)lucky people, who won the tickets in local radio quiz. They would be silent and later would say "I'd rather go to (insert name of local band that sucks) concert."...
And about consumer protection.
Here we have this neat, little law, which states:
And about cable lifters.
On the first or second page of this topic I presented cable lifters for power cords. It's claimed that lifting power cords will make sound better. How one can measure them?
And how about Tube-O-Lator lacquer? How we can measure, if this thing made your transistor amp more "tube-ish"?
BudP, in my country the only people who visit opera houses are those, who either love opera or want to appear classy. The first group will actually act as experts on orchestral performance, acoustics and other opera-related subjects. The second group will act like audiophiles - even though they slept trough first act, they will form faulty and exaggerated opinions just to look classy (or snobby). From time to time there would be few (un)lucky people, who won the tickets in local radio quiz. They would be silent and later would say "I'd rather go to (insert name of local band that sucks) concert."...
And about consumer protection.
Here we have this neat, little law, which states:
It is specific kind of warranty, since in normal warranty the manufacturer can list the elements, which are not under warranty. The law protects customers from this fraud for two years since purchase. But customer must use this law instead of service warranty...
And about cable lifters.
On the first or second page of this topic I presented cable lifters for power cords. It's claimed that lifting power cords will make sound better. How one can measure them?
And how about Tube-O-Lator lacquer? How we can measure, if this thing made your transistor amp more "tube-ish"?
Hi aardvarkash10,
Okay, so you disagree with me. That's fine. Just don't put words in my mouth, please.
The reason? The buying public changes over quickly enough so that they can continue to play the games that cost us all.
The so called created facts you are talking about are things I have lived through. So I know first hand what goes on (in Canada anyway). I've been involved on every side of the issues and have watched the entire mess spiral down the toilet - for years. You may not agree, and that's fine. The situation may be completely different where you are.
There aren't that many new developments to sell people, so developments are manufactured and planned out for introduction. Broadened interests are simply ways of packaging low quality electronics in ways to interest buyers. Look at the quality of manufactured goods and compare that to what we saw earlier in time. Most of today's stuff is refried old stuff wrapped in shiny lights with a much lower level of robustness (for want of a better term).
Fast forward to today. We all expect low prices and sales, and last years models aren't worth anything. The industry worked very hard to make audio a commodity, and it succeeded! Audio is a commodity, and not worth very much. How are you going to convince anyone to save up and buy good stuff with the knowledge that it's worthless in a year or two?
-Chris
Okay, so you disagree with me. That's fine. Just don't put words in my mouth, please.
Like this. Nope. Bigger government is never a good thing. That costs too much.
Nope. Hasn't happened.
The reason? The buying public changes over quickly enough so that they can continue to play the games that cost us all.
I don't have strong feelings for what goes on in different countries. You do. BTW, I AM IN CANADA. However, the financial industry messed it all up, and now hey have a ton of new laws that are an attempt to enforce accountability. It's happened before, and probably continue to happen. Greed can be a strong motivator. Just the same as the Electronics industry as a whole has to deal with RoHS now.
okay.
Well, gee. I've been talking about the audio industry all along. I was under the impression I was reasonably clear about that.
The so called created facts you are talking about are things I have lived through. So I know first hand what goes on (in Canada anyway). I've been involved on every side of the issues and have watched the entire mess spiral down the toilet - for years. You may not agree, and that's fine. The situation may be completely different where you are.
Just how would you go about splitting these two? Retail is bound tightly to manufacturing. Retailers tell manufacturing what to build, what features to include and what the capacitor of the week is. You don't build to that, selling is far more difficult.
Okay. I see it over a long span of years.
Nope. It's always been focused on your wallet. Always will be.
There aren't that many new developments to sell people, so developments are manufactured and planned out for introduction. Broadened interests are simply ways of packaging low quality electronics in ways to interest buyers. Look at the quality of manufactured goods and compare that to what we saw earlier in time. Most of today's stuff is refried old stuff wrapped in shiny lights with a much lower level of robustness (for want of a better term).
I'm sorry, but here you're completely wrong. What killed profitability for the classic audio dealer wasn't the internet, or any other new products. It was the dealer network itself that made the profit leave. The start was the Japanese companies signing dealers up to a quantity in order to sell the brand. They had to commit, no matter how sales were. So how to move that much crap? Blow out sales. One store I worked at sold JVC and Pioneer (and others). JVC came out with better sounding stuff, and much better cassette decks. We were committed to Pioneer, and it only had a few car pieces as it's claim to fame. The stuff sounded terrible otherwise (it's Pioneer, what can I say?). So we were out of stock of JVC and the Pioneer kept coming in, even though it was hard to move. So the blow outs started and everyone was doing it. Thursday and Sunday papers were audio ad days. It wasn't long before the market was saturated, so the only way to sell new product was to devalue the older products.
Fast forward to today. We all expect low prices and sales, and last years models aren't worth anything. The industry worked very hard to make audio a commodity, and it succeeded! Audio is a commodity, and not worth very much. How are you going to convince anyone to save up and buy good stuff with the knowledge that it's worthless in a year or two?
Someone has to. It's clear that the audio industry can't do it itself, and can't be trusted to play nice. Nope, the audio industry needs a mommy and a daddy - plus a good spanking! It's uncontrolled, wasteful and deceitful. Time for it to grow up.
Hey! Whatever it takes for the industry to become responsible citizens. Every professional industry polices itself with varying degrees of success. Audio is the wild, wild west, and this is not going to be the good old days.
Nope. It needs to address the practices of the entire industry to be effective. Individual cases occur when everything else fails. RoHS is with us because of the consumer electronics business and it's greed. Notice that things that need to be reliable are exempted.
Well, yeah! This is a good start. Then we need to look at deferred costs in things like overseas shipping and a move back to durable goods. The entire warranty / service sector needs to be rebuilt anew. That was dismantled years ago. Reasonable model life and parts stores also need to be re-established. Repair by replacement has to end, we can't afford that.
-Chris
I am not sure if HiEnd is really discussed hear. Caveat emptor....means somebody was able to audition HiEnd stuff and later on after purchase while using equipment at home figured out that sound changed drastically suddenly?
imho HiEnd means company cares about reputation and customers. Often dealers allows rent equipment before making final decision to purchase. HiEnd stuff can be serviced and upgraded later on while this level of support is not possible with retail merchandise obviously.
So what caveat emptor stands for in case of HiEnd?
imho HiEnd means company cares about reputation and customers. Often dealers allows rent equipment before making final decision to purchase. HiEnd stuff can be serviced and upgraded later on while this level of support is not possible with retail merchandise obviously.
So what caveat emptor stands for in case of HiEnd?
I don't think you are being realistic Chris. The situation you describe is paralleled in EVERY consumer segment you care to look at from kitchen appliances through clothing to food - the endless consumer demand is for variety.
How do we know its the consumer? Well because they are the ones buying. No-one puts a gun to their head and forces that on them. Sure, manufacturers cleverly market to emphasise the tendancy, but its nothing new or hidden.
As for the fantastic days of the past when all items were high quality with refined build standards? Well, you choose - a 1963 Chevrolet Bel-air or Morris Oxford or Peugeot 403 or Isuzu Bellett, or a 2011 equivalent. A 1963 GE or RCA consumer level console, or a 2011 mid-brand consumer level HT system?
In general terms there is no comparison in cost / value nor in build quality. Today beats 50 years ago hands down. Arguments on compression and digital vs analog aside, the value comparison of 1963 vinyl or radio or TV reproduction vs 2011 digital media including radio and TV parallels the build quality situation. Equipment has better reliability for price and power output, produces better sound and images (source media mastering notwithstanding) and in general provides a higher and wider experience.
I'll allow you that the depth is lacking - we (at a population level) tend to listen or watch in a far more disengaged manner than in the past and so imo the appeal of the mp3 - we don't listen to stuff long enough to get critical about its capability...
But that's not the industry's fault any more than the expansion of McDonalds is the fault of the farmers and bread manufacturers.
How do we know its the consumer? Well because they are the ones buying. No-one puts a gun to their head and forces that on them. Sure, manufacturers cleverly market to emphasise the tendancy, but its nothing new or hidden.
As for the fantastic days of the past when all items were high quality with refined build standards? Well, you choose - a 1963 Chevrolet Bel-air or Morris Oxford or Peugeot 403 or Isuzu Bellett, or a 2011 equivalent. A 1963 GE or RCA consumer level console, or a 2011 mid-brand consumer level HT system?
In general terms there is no comparison in cost / value nor in build quality. Today beats 50 years ago hands down. Arguments on compression and digital vs analog aside, the value comparison of 1963 vinyl or radio or TV reproduction vs 2011 digital media including radio and TV parallels the build quality situation. Equipment has better reliability for price and power output, produces better sound and images (source media mastering notwithstanding) and in general provides a higher and wider experience.
I'll allow you that the depth is lacking - we (at a population level) tend to listen or watch in a far more disengaged manner than in the past and so imo the appeal of the mp3 - we don't listen to stuff long enough to get critical about its capability...
But that's not the industry's fault any more than the expansion of McDonalds is the fault of the farmers and bread manufacturers.
OK, we agree here. Not only does it cost too much, its ineffective.
So the market hasn't killed the industry yet, we are both in agreement again. But you said earlier that (and let me quote you precisely):
.. the industry doesn't deserve to exist any more. In fact, it doesn't.
So you appear unclear as to the health of the industry. Which is it? Is it Schroedinger's Cat by any chance?
How would you know what feelings I have? Big mistake buddy
Mr Spock has stronger feelings than I do.Noted. I hope that doesn't mean I can't use the USA to illustrate my points, which are general ones, not restricted to any specific country.
Yeah, you still need to get out more. The new laws haven't come in since the 2008 crisis, those are still being debated. There were some new laws that came in after Enron - Sarbanes-Oxley for example.
Oh, on re-reading this before posting it up, I've just remembered that some accounting laws have changed since 2008. My mistake. Unfortunately for your arguments, they changed in the direction opposite to enforcing accountabllity. They've allowed financial institutions even more leeway in 'adjusting' their balance sheets.
They've been quite separate in my own mind for quite some time. Back in the 1990s I was designing equipment for custom installers. Don't have them in Canada? Well they were quite a growing industry in the USA - they even had their own show called CEDIA which I visited many times, both in the US and UK. Custom installers aren't like ordinary hi-end retailers, though they do indeed shift some of the same kit. The difference is - they add real value to what they do, by designing and installing complete systems, rather than foot-tapping and suggesting which high margin cables a punter might need.
As far as I'm aware, the CEDIA show continues to grow, year on year. But then I've been out of the industry for a decade, so someone please update me if I'm out of line.
Get out a bit more, that's all I can say. You're living in an illusory world. Another example I've mentioned before on another thread is Emotiva. They're a fairly high-end equipment manufacturer which bypasses retailing entirely.
Often. For most of the shows I attend, the audience demographics are quite a bit (cough, cough) younger than I. There's rarely any comment about acoustics or sound, but the performance and composition are avidly discussed. Interesting, only one of the musicians I see regularly has awareness that his recorded sound could be improved- most are delighted with the compressed, heavily processed sound their producers, engineers, and mastering folks deliver. Nonetheless, the guilty parties are praised in high end journals. Here's an example:
Matt The Electrician Animal Boy Review By Steven Stone
Wonderful music, great performer, but there's the problem with High End audio in a nutshell.
P. T. Barnum put it: "there's a sucker born every minute" more than 100 years ago. As true today as it was then and no amount of interference or attempts to educate will change that. 100 years from now, the same axiom will hold true.
I say let it roll along on its merry way. There is such a very small percentage of the population involved, it basically has no overall impact. I think that Google probably had a higher overall revenue last year than all of the high end manufacturers combined.
Admittedly, I don't get out much. I work a lot and otherwise find happiness in the various projects that I do. Recently I spoke with a gentleman who is probably the only true audiophile I've ever met. The encounter was brief, but in that short time we talked about a few things, including music and gear, etc. It was interesting to witness how he became more animated when he talked about his setup. Slightly guarded at first (I expect he's had some negative feedback on the topic before) but warming up when he saw that I was listening attentively. It was obvious (to me, anyway) that in this he finds his passion. As misguided as others may think he is, (myself included, on the technical merits) there is no arguing with the enjoyment he derives from it.
At the end of the day, there are much worse things to spend your money on. A one time outlay of $10,000 for that highly regarded tube amp equals about 5 years of pack-a-day cigarette smoking, in monetary terms.
I say let it roll along on its merry way. There is such a very small percentage of the population involved, it basically has no overall impact. I think that Google probably had a higher overall revenue last year than all of the high end manufacturers combined.
Admittedly, I don't get out much. I work a lot and otherwise find happiness in the various projects that I do. Recently I spoke with a gentleman who is probably the only true audiophile I've ever met. The encounter was brief, but in that short time we talked about a few things, including music and gear, etc. It was interesting to witness how he became more animated when he talked about his setup. Slightly guarded at first (I expect he's had some negative feedback on the topic before) but warming up when he saw that I was listening attentively. It was obvious (to me, anyway) that in this he finds his passion. As misguided as others may think he is, (myself included, on the technical merits) there is no arguing with the enjoyment he derives from it.
At the end of the day, there are much worse things to spend your money on. A one time outlay of $10,000 for that highly regarded tube amp equals about 5 years of pack-a-day cigarette smoking, in monetary terms.
Yes, frequently. Even with amplified music. Maybe because friends know I'm into audio and did a lot of live mixing, but they always mention if the sound was good or not, and why. It IS important to most, but most have no idea how to do anything about it.
That could be said of the general population, SY.
Of course, I'm just about there, too.
Getting back to the topic of whether HI-END equipment is just gimmicks and high price tags; I have another angle to put you.
It refers not just to high end audio but to high end anything. It is in many cases just showing off, bragging about how much disposable income you have to lock up in such a specific thing.
So much of it has got to do with ego and some sense of empowerment. I have the biggest, most powerful, fastest, most expensive, rarest, smallest, most exotic, blah, blah, blah It makes you feel special because you know that you have it and the vast majority of other people do not.
Of course this is all perfectly acceptable in this world but where does it all end without limitations.
For an answer to this have a look at the monstrosity that Damien Hirst created by sticking, I do not know how mant million £ worth of diamonds to a skull under the pretense that it is art!?
It refers not just to high end audio but to high end anything. It is in many cases just showing off, bragging about how much disposable income you have to lock up in such a specific thing.
So much of it has got to do with ego and some sense of empowerment. I have the biggest, most powerful, fastest, most expensive, rarest, smallest, most exotic, blah, blah, blah It makes you feel special because you know that you have it and the vast majority of other people do not.
Of course this is all perfectly acceptable in this world but where does it all end without limitations.
For an answer to this have a look at the monstrosity that Damien Hirst created by sticking, I do not know how mant million £ worth of diamonds to a skull under the pretense that it is art!?
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.