>>> I had always wanted to do a full range design, and not a small one either. I just didn't want to pay $1,200 bucks for an exotic full ranger.
I am curious about this driver too especially since i believe it fits the same cutout as the TB w8-1808 i already have.
$1200 is a lot for full rangers but we already know that. There are lots of great options out there for much less. I would imagine the Dayton drivers are among them. Great to see a project using them! Their specs suggest a back horn of some kind would improve the bass. Dayton, Fostex, TB, Wild Burro Betsy... lots of good 8" full rangers out there that are more reasonably priced.
Cool.
I am curious about this driver too especially since i believe it fits the same cutout as the TB w8-1808 i already have.
$1200 is a lot for full rangers but we already know that. There are lots of great options out there for much less. I would imagine the Dayton drivers are among them. Great to see a project using them! Their specs suggest a back horn of some kind would improve the bass. Dayton, Fostex, TB, Wild Burro Betsy... lots of good 8" full rangers out there that are more reasonably priced.
Cool.
So besides Curt's Singularities, has there been any other instances of these babies "in the wild"??
Freddi,
Do you have a direct link to the plan for the K-coupler here or at Full Range Driver forum? What I'm looking for is a new project for the FE167e which gets the cabinet size down.
thanks,
Lon
I have the PS220-8 in a 43ltr ported enclosure, equalized flat +/-0.1dB from 60 - 20k. The sound quality is really quite good. My equalization is thru a HEAD acoustics MFE VI.1 with PEQ option, GRAS 1/4" omni microphone.
This is really only feasible in my lab however. I am now searching for a cost effective means to equalize a stereo pair with this level of precision. Up until this point, I never would have believed that a single driver could perform this well.
I do have one caveat which is related to high SPL conditions. As expected, with a dense spectrum (think Fireflies by Owl City for example), some clarity is lost because of bass distortion/excursion. However, if I strap a 4th order butterworth highpass at 150Hz or so, I can keep cranking up the volume with little noticeable distortion. I should note that my test lab is a rather robust 35ft x 16ft x 10ft, and this single driver fills the full room quite loud (~102dBSPL @ 6ft).
Hopefully this weekend, I can build the other cabinet and listen in stereo. I'm getting excited!
This is really only feasible in my lab however. I am now searching for a cost effective means to equalize a stereo pair with this level of precision. Up until this point, I never would have believed that a single driver could perform this well.
I do have one caveat which is related to high SPL conditions. As expected, with a dense spectrum (think Fireflies by Owl City for example), some clarity is lost because of bass distortion/excursion. However, if I strap a 4th order butterworth highpass at 150Hz or so, I can keep cranking up the volume with little noticeable distortion. I should note that my test lab is a rather robust 35ft x 16ft x 10ft, and this single driver fills the full room quite loud (~102dBSPL @ 6ft).
Hopefully this weekend, I can build the other cabinet and listen in stereo. I'm getting excited!
...So it needs a little help on the smoothness side. The attached plots represent my initial testing with this driver in a sealed enclosure. The 1/3rd octave response, and the eq curve which was required to get to this point are shown. Response is from 200 to 20k. The equalization curve is not smoothed.
phase is perfect, frequency response is perfect, straight wire between the amplifier and the speaker...what's the problem?
Seriously, the detail is beyond impressive to me.
If anyone is interested, send me a song (wave file) and I will equalize it with this curve and send it back to you. simply play it thru this driver and be amazed.
phase is perfect, frequency response is perfect, straight wire between the amplifier and the speaker...what's the problem?
Seriously, the detail is beyond impressive to me.
If anyone is interested, send me a song (wave file) and I will equalize it with this curve and send it back to you. simply play it thru this driver and be amazed.
Attachments
Hmm, we all like what we like and I've no problem with a rising response ('shouty') driver if for no other reason than it gives me more tuning flexibility and as you note, such drivers will sound more detailed (musical), though not necessarily more accurate. If I can't acoustically EQ it +/-3 dB or at worst with a high output impedance amp or its SS+R/C filter though, then front only or compound horn loading is the only option for me.
Based solely on the various measurements so far presented then, for my ears it appears to be strictly for horn loading or expensive skeet practice same as some other popular 'shouty' drivers that have to trade too much efficiency for ~flat gain BW.
GM
Based solely on the various measurements so far presented then, for my ears it appears to be strictly for horn loading or expensive skeet practice same as some other popular 'shouty' drivers that have to trade too much efficiency for ~flat gain BW.
GM
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Interesting but pitty about the curves. My SET needs a more efficient (bigger) speaker, but having played with the now-defunct fostex 127E I'm not ready for another 'shouty' speaker that's just acceptable with a SET but unusable without correction with SS. After listening to a small Fountek 3" with a much flatter response I'm hoping to find a quality paper cone FR without the shout.
Mark Audio CHP70 / CSS EL70 - need a "bit more" torque to get them going than FE127E, but can have more low end grunt and smoother through the upper midrange
but then again, I never had issue with the FE127E or FE167E, and since my listening needs weren't as extreme (or critical?) as some, was happy to feed them accordingly
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There's something about a pleasantly wavy frequency response (when it covers everything from top to bottom) and it's directly connected to the amp.
Then again, i can see myself buying another EQ and enjoying music that way too. Problem is every time i use an EQ i don't like the 'grain' or 'texture' it adds when comparing without.
Then again, i can see myself buying another EQ and enjoying music that way too. Problem is every time i use an EQ i don't like the 'grain' or 'texture' it adds when comparing without.
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It was you and Dave that got me on the FE127E path with the Fonken's so I know you are fan 😉 - don't get me wrong, it's a very musical driver. But, I never got a good result with the SS amp it was designed to be used with and baffle step correction didn't hold up in the long term as a satisfying solution to taming it. It's relegated to HT use where it does well even with SS.
Now with the tube amp it sounds good, don't get me wrong, it works well. But it's still got that 7kHz peak (on the spec for an untreated cone its a solid 10dB up) to my ears despite some cone treatment. It gives it a livelier sound which at times I like very much. However, after listening to something like the Fountek for awhile I find that I still enjoy the music very much and don't have that peak to get used to. So I'm reluctant to try another driver with a peak somewhere in that part of the FR. I am going to be looking out for those new FF drivers you told me about 😎
Hi GM, have you ever experimented with felt or someother type of material to act as a mechanical acoustic low pass filter (other than front horn loading). Or even better used as a notch to knock down nasty peaks in the 2kHz to 7kHz range? I guess this would assume that one knows where on the cone itself that this peak is located. That and some type of way to suspend the material so that it does not touch the driver.
Hi GM, have you ever experimented with felt or someother type of material to act as a mechanical acoustic low pass filter (other than front horn loading). Or even better used as a notch to knock down nasty peaks in the 2kHz to 7kHz range? I guess this would assume that one knows where on the cone itself that this peak is located. That and some type of way to suspend the material so that it does not touch the driver.
Greets!
Quite a bit way back when and periodically posted about it when appropriate. The only ~documented build though was a RS 40-1354 MLTL where I achieved +/- 3 dB over ~ 40-12.5 kHz as measured with MLSSA IIRC.
Peaks I search for using a dirt cheap mechanic's stethoscope, then damp it as required, so no, not into taming individual notches with high Q filters that add ringing, requiring damping resistors, though I'm not opposed to using digital EQ.
If the response is smooth overall, just 'bumped up', then a contour filter is OK, but I still prefer doing it acoustically if practical by suspending damping 'donuts' over the driver, or in the case of the 40-1354, I chose to 'kill several birds with one stone' by placing an acoustic pad over the whole driver with a cutout over the DC to allow it to broadcast unimpeded with just a little stick on star like kindergarten teachers use to grade papers to smooth its break-up modes.
In unfinished cabs to boot, they weren't taken seriously at an Atlanta DIY MEET until folks started playing music through them. The only negative comment was a lack of high treble of course, but the speakers were destined for a friend with one severely impaired ear and the other mostly gone by 8 kHz, so saw no reason to bother with a super tweeter.
Fishing line or carpet thread makes for an easy way to suspend stuff. Thin piano wire if you want something shiny.
The $0.98 tweak is a must for all whizzers AFAIK.
Some tweaks are one way, such as I like to knead the starch out of whizzer cones to damp them. Then there's the global approach such as covering the entire diaphragm with Puzzlecoat or Dammar or Shellac, or all of the above to get the right balance of damping to stiffness, etc..
The problem though is that the best tweaks are the ones you need extra drivers to practice on. I was fortunate in that I had easy access to many used TV, radio, car audio drivers for free or darn near it, but unless your budget can afford extras it would be a real crapshoot getting a pair of drivers optimized without ruining them.
That said, I did all this before water based airbrush paint came along, so it might be a viable option. My experience with it has been limited to a formulation specific to coating Lexan, so probably won't stick properly to a factory treated cone.
Touching the driver isn't necessarily taboo. WRT the 40-1354, I needed to damp its flimsy half roll surround, so cut down the mounting gasket ~flush with the frame rim to expose it along with shaving it at an angle to attenuate any eigenmodes. Note that I do this on all 'FR' drivers constructed this way, though IIRC, Dave P10 commented that he just got rid of the whole gasket and hammer the flange flat to cure that problem.
The 3/4" thick polyfil? sheet 'cover' I bonded with double stick carpet tape to a square cutout plate made from some scrap hardboard that was a little thinner than the frame's rim height, then the assembly was double stick taped to the cab.
Much later, I covered them with expanded double knit to finish them off. This smoothed them out a bit more, especially up high of course, but admittedly they lost a little bit of the 'toe tapping' character some folks at the MEET lauded them for.
Anyway, tweaking options abound, especially for entry level PA drivers, though as one person noted, at what point do you say 'tis better to just buy better'? Guess that depends on the person, the app and the budget.
GM
Quite a bit way back when and periodically posted about it when appropriate. The only ~documented build though was a RS 40-1354 MLTL where I achieved +/- 3 dB over ~ 40-12.5 kHz as measured with MLSSA IIRC.
Peaks I search for using a dirt cheap mechanic's stethoscope, then damp it as required, so no, not into taming individual notches with high Q filters that add ringing, requiring damping resistors, though I'm not opposed to using digital EQ.
If the response is smooth overall, just 'bumped up', then a contour filter is OK, but I still prefer doing it acoustically if practical by suspending damping 'donuts' over the driver, or in the case of the 40-1354, I chose to 'kill several birds with one stone' by placing an acoustic pad over the whole driver with a cutout over the DC to allow it to broadcast unimpeded with just a little stick on star like kindergarten teachers use to grade papers to smooth its break-up modes.
In unfinished cabs to boot, they weren't taken seriously at an Atlanta DIY MEET until folks started playing music through them. The only negative comment was a lack of high treble of course, but the speakers were destined for a friend with one severely impaired ear and the other mostly gone by 8 kHz, so saw no reason to bother with a super tweeter.
Fishing line or carpet thread makes for an easy way to suspend stuff. Thin piano wire if you want something shiny.
The $0.98 tweak is a must for all whizzers AFAIK.
Some tweaks are one way, such as I like to knead the starch out of whizzer cones to damp them. Then there's the global approach such as covering the entire diaphragm with Puzzlecoat or Dammar or Shellac, or all of the above to get the right balance of damping to stiffness, etc..
The problem though is that the best tweaks are the ones you need extra drivers to practice on. I was fortunate in that I had easy access to many used TV, radio, car audio drivers for free or darn near it, but unless your budget can afford extras it would be a real crapshoot getting a pair of drivers optimized without ruining them.
That said, I did all this before water based airbrush paint came along, so it might be a viable option. My experience with it has been limited to a formulation specific to coating Lexan, so probably won't stick properly to a factory treated cone.
Touching the driver isn't necessarily taboo. WRT the 40-1354, I needed to damp its flimsy half roll surround, so cut down the mounting gasket ~flush with the frame rim to expose it along with shaving it at an angle to attenuate any eigenmodes. Note that I do this on all 'FR' drivers constructed this way, though IIRC, Dave P10 commented that he just got rid of the whole gasket and hammer the flange flat to cure that problem.
The 3/4" thick polyfil? sheet 'cover' I bonded with double stick carpet tape to a square cutout plate made from some scrap hardboard that was a little thinner than the frame's rim height, then the assembly was double stick taped to the cab.
Much later, I covered them with expanded double knit to finish them off. This smoothed them out a bit more, especially up high of course, but admittedly they lost a little bit of the 'toe tapping' character some folks at the MEET lauded them for.
Anyway, tweaking options abound, especially for entry level PA drivers, though as one person noted, at what point do you say 'tis better to just buy better'? Guess that depends on the person, the app and the budget.
GM
Thanks GM, I see you aren't the only one to try to mechanically iron out a reponse. I've ruined many drivers, most notably several Lowthers trying to massage the peaky treble. And as I have also found, the more invasive mods were irreversible.
Have you ever tried cutting two circles in the cones themselves? Accuton claims that it reduces the breakup nodes in their ceramic drivers. They also "plug" the holes with what appears to be a rubber-like disc. If it does, then the question is where on the cone and how big? I've got several pairs of FE127e, I could use, although I'm a bit reluctant now that they have been discontinued.
(I get a kick out of making a mod and then hearing what happens. And the more risky the bigger the kick. Without this then I would simply buy a speaker that is ironed out, as I do with most other things.)
Have you ever tried cutting two circles in the cones themselves? Accuton claims that it reduces the breakup nodes in their ceramic drivers. They also "plug" the holes with what appears to be a rubber-like disc. If it does, then the question is where on the cone and how big? I've got several pairs of FE127e, I could use, although I'm a bit reluctant now that they have been discontinued.
(I get a kick out of making a mod and then hearing what happens. And the more risky the bigger the kick. Without this then I would simply buy a speaker that is ironed out, as I do with most other things.)
Hmm... wonder how they would sound with current drive. Other than the resonant peak the Z looks pretty flat (makes me wonder about the accuracy of the Z plot). Should at least help the bottom end though.
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I suspect the Z is flatter because some of the peaks are cone resonances that don't always translate back into voicecoil movement.
Have you guys seen what Steve at Decware has done with this driver?
Audiophile Tube Amps and Tube Gear from DECWARE
DECWARE - Audio Paper Zen Open Baffle Speaker
Interesting idea to say the least. Bummer about the price though as it's out of my league for now. Would love to hear it regardless.
Audiophile Tube Amps and Tube Gear from DECWARE
DECWARE - Audio Paper Zen Open Baffle Speaker
Interesting idea to say the least. Bummer about the price though as it's out of my league for now. Would love to hear it regardless.
I'm glad he preferred the TB 1808 over the Seas. Now i don't feel the desire to purchase the Seas. I think he should have also included the new GRS full range driver. Not sure anymore if price means a thing.
WRT the DECware build...
...am I wrong in thinking that he is selling a (very pretty) first-order shelving lowpass filter for $500? I think its cool that it looks a little like a field coil driver at first glance, and it looks sweet hanging off the back of a baffle. That said, I found the description he gave of the principal of operation to be largely incorrect. For instance, in no way is "current magnetically coupled to the voice coil." It is magnetically coupled to the shelving resistor, which is not a particularly useful innovation so far as I can tell, but I would be interested to be wrong (why not, transformers are neat).
At low frequencies, the impedance presented by the primary inductance is negligible and the driver just sees the DCR of the primary. From the .76 Qts he quotes, I would think the resistance is about 13 ohms. However, this would seem to correct his stated DCR and efficiency figures, so maybe I'm missing something here.
At intermediate frequencies, the primary and secondary inductance present a low pass filter with a 6db/octave response. At high frequencies, the "Tuning load" (which he says is resistive, i.e. a resistor) shelves this attenuation.
How is this any different from what the fine folks at the PE forum are doing?
Iron cores add their own coloration, which I sometimes enjoy, but that is all that is immediately springing to mind. Any thoughts?
...am I wrong in thinking that he is selling a (very pretty) first-order shelving lowpass filter for $500? I think its cool that it looks a little like a field coil driver at first glance, and it looks sweet hanging off the back of a baffle. That said, I found the description he gave of the principal of operation to be largely incorrect. For instance, in no way is "current magnetically coupled to the voice coil." It is magnetically coupled to the shelving resistor, which is not a particularly useful innovation so far as I can tell, but I would be interested to be wrong (why not, transformers are neat).
At low frequencies, the impedance presented by the primary inductance is negligible and the driver just sees the DCR of the primary. From the .76 Qts he quotes, I would think the resistance is about 13 ohms. However, this would seem to correct his stated DCR and efficiency figures, so maybe I'm missing something here.
At intermediate frequencies, the primary and secondary inductance present a low pass filter with a 6db/octave response. At high frequencies, the "Tuning load" (which he says is resistive, i.e. a resistor) shelves this attenuation.
How is this any different from what the fine folks at the PE forum are doing?
Iron cores add their own coloration, which I sometimes enjoy, but that is all that is immediately springing to mind. Any thoughts?
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