Okay, I've been poking around this forum for a while now and I think I've been going at it all wrong. I think I need to outline my "dream speakers" and then have the many experts here tell me if its doable or if I'm just out in the night.
So, first of all, the only full range, single driver speakers I've heard are my little Omega 3's. I love them, but the drop almost totally off under 50 Hz (thus my other thread about matching a good sub). After looking into this, I think when all is said and done it might just be easier to try another speaker design. Besides, you can never have too many speakers!
In a perfect world I would want something that stretches down to 30 Hz. I want something very efficient to use with some SET amps. I'd love to find something that would work with a 2 watt 45 based design, but I can fudge a little on that. I listen to a lot of acoustic music (piano and guitar especially) as well as lots of vocals. I've been getting into classical, but its a secondary interest at the moment. What I listen to mostly is small orchestral works. Large cabinets are okay, but taller/skinner (i.e. Sachiko or something similar) is preferred to the giant cube.
So, am I dreaming? Can I do it all in a single pair of speakers? Am I better off trying for a couple of subs as well? Am I simply asking too much?
Oh yes, budget. Cheaper is always better, but I can stretch fairly far if needs be. I'm not interested in $2000 drivers, but I don't need $15 Radio Shack drivers either.
Thanks in advance.
So, first of all, the only full range, single driver speakers I've heard are my little Omega 3's. I love them, but the drop almost totally off under 50 Hz (thus my other thread about matching a good sub). After looking into this, I think when all is said and done it might just be easier to try another speaker design. Besides, you can never have too many speakers!
In a perfect world I would want something that stretches down to 30 Hz. I want something very efficient to use with some SET amps. I'd love to find something that would work with a 2 watt 45 based design, but I can fudge a little on that. I listen to a lot of acoustic music (piano and guitar especially) as well as lots of vocals. I've been getting into classical, but its a secondary interest at the moment. What I listen to mostly is small orchestral works. Large cabinets are okay, but taller/skinner (i.e. Sachiko or something similar) is preferred to the giant cube.
So, am I dreaming? Can I do it all in a single pair of speakers? Am I better off trying for a couple of subs as well? Am I simply asking too much?
Oh yes, budget. Cheaper is always better, but I can stretch fairly far if needs be. I'm not interested in $2000 drivers, but I don't need $15 Radio Shack drivers either.
Thanks in advance.
Well these could do it, lots of good reports and builds, but they go against some of your criteria.. http://www.greatplainsaudio.com/downloads/604_8H_III.pdf
You can't do it all in a single pair of drivers, IMO. But everyone's definition of 'it all' will vary. I happen to think subwoofers have no place in music, but I like a quality full range driver >200hz with large bass drivers. I shoot for 35hz to 12-14 khz - that's all I want. But others will want more than that or be happy with less. What do you want? That's all that matters.
DaveCan, good to see you!!! Those 604's look really interesting.
bigjppop, you _might_ be able to have it all, but to have (a) efficiency, and (b) deep bass, your cabinet will be very large. Lately I'm listening to Austins and BiB's, and there is lots of bass there. But they don't do absolutely _everything_ (i.e. orchestral etc.)
Are you familiar with Hoffman's Iron Law? Regarding efficiency, deep bass and small box, you can only have two. 🙂
bigjppop, you _might_ be able to have it all, but to have (a) efficiency, and (b) deep bass, your cabinet will be very large. Lately I'm listening to Austins and BiB's, and there is lots of bass there. But they don't do absolutely _everything_ (i.e. orchestral etc.)
Are you familiar with Hoffman's Iron Law? Regarding efficiency, deep bass and small box, you can only have two. 🙂
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ive heard a pair of BIB cabinets with fostex 206e drivers. they shook my small intestines on organ music. i would quite confidently claim that they easily hit 30hz. thats what i would suggest at the bare minimum as they are annoyingly simple to construct. barring that, if you want to get fancy, pick any suitable design from frugal-horn's website with the appropriate driver and im sure you will be happy with the outcome.
i have, however, been told repeatedly that any of those bi-mouthed horn behemoths require large rooms for the bass to properly develop. very hard to integrate them into smaller rooms. im sure more knowledgeable members will chime in soon.
ps. the bibs were being amped with a pair of heavily modded monoblocks pulled out of an old akai reel to reel. monoblocks were probably putting out 3 watts at the most and we were repeatedly told by the hosts wife upstairs to turn the "noise" down. 😛
i have, however, been told repeatedly that any of those bi-mouthed horn behemoths require large rooms for the bass to properly develop. very hard to integrate them into smaller rooms. im sure more knowledgeable members will chime in soon.
ps. the bibs were being amped with a pair of heavily modded monoblocks pulled out of an old akai reel to reel. monoblocks were probably putting out 3 watts at the most and we were repeatedly told by the hosts wife upstairs to turn the "noise" down. 😛
J-low, revolver version
Talking about dreaming (low bass with fullrangers), and 'array' was brought up....
I got an idea, maybe kinda crazy, but someone might like it 😀
Just a crude idea, maybe a mega headache in choosing proper driver and scaling the horn (and fitting in the house... ).
Oh, very important, it must be xovered, in this way: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/90804-large-midrange-ob-scott-g-41.html#post1955350
Anyone?
Talking about dreaming (low bass with fullrangers), and 'array' was brought up....
I got an idea, maybe kinda crazy, but someone might like it 😀
Just a crude idea, maybe a mega headache in choosing proper driver and scaling the horn (and fitting in the house... ).
Oh, very important, it must be xovered, in this way: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/90804-large-midrange-ob-scott-g-41.html#post1955350
Anyone?
Except the critical FR part -- those are 2-ways. And i believe closer to $2k/pr than half that.
dave
Inclined Planes recommendation of FAST is a very valid approach. Much like what you are attempting with your Omegas, if you choose appropriate woofers.
To do it within your criterion i would suggest Sachiko. For more efficiency find a set of FE206eSR. FE208 would get you similar efficiency but at the expense of adding a tweeter.
(at least the 1st two benefit substantially from treatment)
It hasn't been built yet, and i've yet to get my drivers, but i fully expect the MA Alpair 12 in Avebury (Sachiko would be a forebear of this design) will reach higher & lower with greater neutrality, but at the expense of efficiency (Hoffman again) -- how big is your room?
dave
To do it within your criterion i would suggest Sachiko. For more efficiency find a set of FE206eSR. FE208 would get you similar efficiency but at the expense of adding a tweeter.
(at least the 1st two benefit substantially from treatment)
It hasn't been built yet, and i've yet to get my drivers, but i fully expect the MA Alpair 12 in Avebury (Sachiko would be a forebear of this design) will reach higher & lower with greater neutrality, but at the expense of efficiency (Hoffman again) -- how big is your room?
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
dave
OK, then. But why on earth I haven't seen any "ring-array" + "true BLH" built around here or anywhere?
Xover is simply a cap in parallel with outer drivers, simple enough, especially compared with all other 'mess' in such design...
Xover is simply a cap in parallel with outer drivers, simple enough, especially compared with all other 'mess' in such design...
Simplified versions exist. Cost of drivers is probably a big impediment.
I don't think your XO will be as simple as you imagine.
dave
I don't think your XO will be as simple as you imagine.
dave
First of all, I really appreciate all the responses so far.
I like the Sachiko's and have been eying the FE208EZ. I really like its efficiency but I'm a little worried if in going that big I'd lose what I've really fallen in love with in my 4.5 inch Omega's. Just looking at the numbers it says 42 Hz to 14kHz so I can see why a tweeter of some kind might be necessary. I know very little about the physics behind it, but I'm assuming the enclosure could help push that 42 Hz down into the 30's; am I correct?
I really like the look of some of the CSS and Mark Audio drivers (both the physical look as well as the performance numbers) but its a huge hit in efficiency (down to 85 ish?). What is it that makes the Fostex drivers so much more efficient?
As for my room, that's where it gets tricky. I have no idea! I'm moving in a couple of months to Berlin and have no idea what kind of house I'm going to have. My problem is, where I am now, I have access to a full cabinet shop. Now, I know there is a lot more to it than having the tools, but at least here I've got that to start with! There, I probably won't have anything. I wish I had some idea of the kind of room I'd end up with, but who knows. I guess that means I need some kind of design that is somewhat flexible. I've read that something like the Sachiko really needs a big room to function properly? What classifies as a "big" room?
Oh yes, I was drawn to the Sigma line of the Fostex drivers because I really hate that little cone thing in the middle of lots of their other drivers. Stupid, I know but I'm shallow! I can't seem to find much in the way of thoughts/reviews here on those Sigma drivers; is that a bad sign?
So again, thanks for all the responses and please keep the ideas coming.
P.S. What is FAST?
And the room
Bigger motors, lower mass cones, FR that is not as controlled or flat.
You'd actually be willing to pay to ship a set of Sachiko across the Atlantic? I'd be building a set of uFonken with bass support.
It would need to bebig enuff to pull them out with fronts at least a m from the wall, and you about 3 m away (and a couple m behind you)
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1455
FAST is a full range with bass support (not a "subwoofer" -- proper woofer capable of good response at least a couple octaves beyond the XO (XO between ~100-300 Hz)
dave
My job ships all my stuff so cost of shipping isn't an issue. I'm a little more concerned about needing a room at least 6 meters deep... that's a pretty big room! I'm guessing that will mean looking into some other options. Are those measurements pretty similar for all of the double mouthed horns or can the room shrink with the smaller versions?
So many choices!
So many choices!
Another alternative for the 208
Tip_43
Your new room may be rather on the small to medium size?, I thought most living quarters over there in Europe are rather smaller compared to here in North America? Just an observation from looking at different gear and domestic living quarters of members across the vast ocean etc.. 🙂
Re the GPA 604 : All one driver although a coax or duplex, high resale factor, excellent sensitivity will not limit your amp choices, pricey, needs a big cab like the good old days 9+ ft3, GM had mentioned that corner loaded in the right cab in the right room it could reach 16hz..
Tip_43
Your new room may be rather on the small to medium size?, I thought most living quarters over there in Europe are rather smaller compared to here in North America? Just an observation from looking at different gear and domestic living quarters of members across the vast ocean etc.. 🙂
Re the GPA 604 : All one driver although a coax or duplex, high resale factor, excellent sensitivity will not limit your amp choices, pricey, needs a big cab like the good old days 9+ ft3, GM had mentioned that corner loaded in the right cab in the right room it could reach 16hz..
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Generally speaking, you're right. In the UK, we are short on space compared to the USA. You guys have loads of space, and a 4 bedroom house is considered normal (at least, that's what the movies indicate...). Over here, you'd pay a lot of money for such a house, because space is at a premium.
In places like France, Germany, Spain, I'd expect them to be somewhere in between, as there is more space than here in the UK, but not as much as in the USA.
Therefore, you'll probably be looking at the small floorstander-size speakers. Over-do it, and you won't see the benefit until you get a bigger room. Under-do it, you won't get everything you want from them.
Chris
In places like France, Germany, Spain, I'd expect them to be somewhere in between, as there is more space than here in the UK, but not as much as in the USA.
Therefore, you'll probably be looking at the small floorstander-size speakers. Over-do it, and you won't see the benefit until you get a bigger room. Under-do it, you won't get everything you want from them.
Chris
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That's probably an excellent idea!! Seeings how you're moving to Berlin you could make a trip and visit Hm (Horst), and check out his designs before you make a decision and also know what room you'll be working with.. Also as you get all your stuff moved free no problem, then looking into buying up some sheets of Baltic Birch ply before you go may be a good idea, if the price and selection is better here on this side etc..
Ps. Thanks Robert 🙂
Ps. Thanks Robert 🙂
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