Jupiter And Mars...
Hi,
Peter:
I think that was a little prank he tried to fool us with.
Joel doesn't listen, he doesn't measure, he just builds...and builds.
Don't know why though, maybe he doesn't either?
OPTS: who cares, as long as they're the cheapest Hammonds.
CHOKES: same thing, really.
Resistors: what the hell, they all sound the same, don't they?
Coupling caps: since they're all the same, let's use the cheapest ones or a coupling xformer.
PSU caps: who needs them?
Wires: as long as they conduct, who cares?
Monoblocks: nah, I listen to mono, so why bother about channel separation?
Just some excerpts form the diary of a person advancing the current state of the art.
And surely I must have forgotten some lesser important parts like "used tubes".
Cheers,
Hi,
Peter:
I think that was a little prank he tried to fool us with.
Joel doesn't listen, he doesn't measure, he just builds...and builds.
Don't know why though, maybe he doesn't either?
OPTS: who cares, as long as they're the cheapest Hammonds.
CHOKES: same thing, really.
Resistors: what the hell, they all sound the same, don't they?
Coupling caps: since they're all the same, let's use the cheapest ones or a coupling xformer.
PSU caps: who needs them?
Wires: as long as they conduct, who cares?
Monoblocks: nah, I listen to mono, so why bother about channel separation?
Just some excerpts form the diary of a person advancing the current state of the art.
And surely I must have forgotten some lesser important parts like "used tubes".
Cheers,
Re: Jupiter And Mars...
Frank, I seem to be doing a lot more designing and building than you are. In fact, have we EVER seen one of your amps? Have we ever seen an original thought come out of your mouth that made any sense whatsoever? You do a lot of critiqueing of other people's ideas, and seem to like poking fun at everyone - but yet you never put yourself on the line. Hmmmm... is this just entertainment for you?
I enjoy finding good sounding and working alternatives for people to use who are on a budget. If this annoys you, or is offensive to you in any way - I suggest you don't read my posts anymore. In fact, I've already suggested that to you twice before, but for some reason you keep on coming back. Why?
fdegrove said:
Frank, I seem to be doing a lot more designing and building than you are. In fact, have we EVER seen one of your amps? Have we ever seen an original thought come out of your mouth that made any sense whatsoever? You do a lot of critiqueing of other people's ideas, and seem to like poking fun at everyone - but yet you never put yourself on the line. Hmmmm... is this just entertainment for you?
I enjoy finding good sounding and working alternatives for people to use who are on a budget. If this annoys you, or is offensive to you in any way - I suggest you don't read my posts anymore. In fact, I've already suggested that to you twice before, but for some reason you keep on coming back. Why?
JOEL THE GREAT.
Hi,
Tacking example stages from the RDH is not what I consider designing.
Joel, it's not a requirement on this forum as far as I can tell.
Secondly, since I am probably at least fifteen years older than yourself has it ever occurred to you that I've done more to advance audio than you'll ever will?
And no, it is not a requirement either.
As far as I am aware I critique your gross generalisations, not yous "designs", although I could do so.
Obviously your goals are about making acceptable gear at an acceptable price.
It should be worth noting that the people you reply to don't neccesarily have that objective in mind.
Some of us just want to get the best out their listening experience even when constrained by a budget.
From that POV, I still try to give good advise so they know where and how to cut corners.
You, OTOH seem to want to cut corners on everything possible.
This is fine with me for your own use, just don't pretend it is the nec plus ultra as you seem to consistently do since in that case you're not only deceiving yourself but fellow members as well.
And that is where I object.
As said above, don't pass your experience on as if nothing else matters to other people.
What you're building doesn't annoy me at all, the way you present your views to the outside world annoys me enormously since it shows a lack of respect for people having dedicated most of their live to advance the reproduction of music at home.
BTW, I'd like to hear other people's view on all I claimed in post
#23 since IMO it really sums up all the false truths you've been spouting here.
And rest assured I'll keep on defending my POV for I know I'm right from within my context, you disregard all context however and just make your claims as if they were the bible itself.
Hope I made myself clear?
Hi,
Tacking example stages from the RDH is not what I consider designing.
Joel, it's not a requirement on this forum as far as I can tell.
Secondly, since I am probably at least fifteen years older than yourself has it ever occurred to you that I've done more to advance audio than you'll ever will?
And no, it is not a requirement either.
As far as I am aware I critique your gross generalisations, not yous "designs", although I could do so.
Obviously your goals are about making acceptable gear at an acceptable price.
It should be worth noting that the people you reply to don't neccesarily have that objective in mind.
Some of us just want to get the best out their listening experience even when constrained by a budget.
From that POV, I still try to give good advise so they know where and how to cut corners.
You, OTOH seem to want to cut corners on everything possible.
This is fine with me for your own use, just don't pretend it is the nec plus ultra as you seem to consistently do since in that case you're not only deceiving yourself but fellow members as well.
And that is where I object.
As said above, don't pass your experience on as if nothing else matters to other people.
What you're building doesn't annoy me at all, the way you present your views to the outside world annoys me enormously since it shows a lack of respect for people having dedicated most of their live to advance the reproduction of music at home.
BTW, I'd like to hear other people's view on all I claimed in post
#23 since IMO it really sums up all the false truths you've been spouting here.
And rest assured I'll keep on defending my POV for I know I'm right from within my context, you disregard all context however and just make your claims as if they were the bible itself.
Hope I made myself clear?
continued...
Gosh, I'd hardly call a 01A-->01A-->71A a budget design! The above 6EM7 amp was my attempt at a lower cost design - hey, aren't those Hammond 125ESE's
FWIW, a good "pissy" discussion about what should or shouldn't sound good is always fun. In the end most audio decisions are based on some combination of sonics and the desire to be unique. I prefer using less common tubes, and have built around 6EM7, 6S4, 46, 826, 407A and others. Some of my projects are on my website at the-planet.org
If budget is an issue, the TV triodes (6BL7, 6BX7, 6EM7, 6DN7, 6S4 etc) are hard to beat. Great sounding and very inexpensive.
A short answer about the output transformers... I've played with a handful of SE types. I've had more experience with US products, as the shipping from overseas makes others relatively expensive. If you're looking for an easy answer, order from Magnequest or Electraprint. Both Mike and Jack make fantastic products, and support the hobby.
Hammond fills in a valuable niche in the price conscious portion of the line, and the 125ESE and larger 162_SE series present good values for many projects. I also used the One Electron UBT-1 for an 826 design and was pleased.
The Tango U808 wasn't bad, but at least on one particular 2A3 design I liked the MQ DS025 better. I have some future plans for the U808's at lower current. I haven't had the pleasure of trying the more expensive Tango or Tamura products.
Nice thing about transformers is that unless you do something rash they can be recycled or resold.
I have only one transformer I found to be a poor, and I'm currently corresponding with the manufacturer. Before I post a public comment about their quality I'd like to give them ample time to rectify the problem.
= Gary
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Gosh, I'd hardly call a 01A-->01A-->71A a budget design! The above 6EM7 amp was my attempt at a lower cost design - hey, aren't those Hammond 125ESE's
FWIW, a good "pissy" discussion about what should or shouldn't sound good is always fun. In the end most audio decisions are based on some combination of sonics and the desire to be unique. I prefer using less common tubes, and have built around 6EM7, 6S4, 46, 826, 407A and others. Some of my projects are on my website at the-planet.org
If budget is an issue, the TV triodes (6BL7, 6BX7, 6EM7, 6DN7, 6S4 etc) are hard to beat. Great sounding and very inexpensive.
A short answer about the output transformers... I've played with a handful of SE types. I've had more experience with US products, as the shipping from overseas makes others relatively expensive. If you're looking for an easy answer, order from Magnequest or Electraprint. Both Mike and Jack make fantastic products, and support the hobby.
Hammond fills in a valuable niche in the price conscious portion of the line, and the 125ESE and larger 162_SE series present good values for many projects. I also used the One Electron UBT-1 for an 826 design and was pleased.
The Tango U808 wasn't bad, but at least on one particular 2A3 design I liked the MQ DS025 better. I have some future plans for the U808's at lower current. I haven't had the pleasure of trying the more expensive Tango or Tamura products.
Nice thing about transformers is that unless you do something rash they can be recycled or resold.
I have only one transformer I found to be a poor, and I'm currently corresponding with the manufacturer. Before I post a public comment about their quality I'd like to give them ample time to rectify the problem.
= Gary
Joel said:
Joel, I have to disagree with you here. My personal experience tells me otherwise (with PP trans), and it's not just from the amplitude roll off. Apart from the tubes, the OPT is the biggest determinant in the sound of a (well designed) amplifier. I've spent much of the last week rolling OPTs in and out of my bench amps, and there is a hell of a difference in the sound between them. As I already own all of the trans used in testing, and most I bought cheap surplus, the cost issue is moot. The most expensive trans are my new Lundahls, and in one circuit, they were comprehensively beaten by some vintage Partridges. In the big amp they were the best, but the Partridges were excluded as they couldn't take the current. But the Part's were outstanding and expensive transformers in their day.
VoltSecond did a Spice analysis of SE transformer properties here, using a 211 as an example.
Cheers
Re: JOEL THE GREAT.
Utterly incoherant.
But let me try to list your points...
1) You say that it's ok to build a "cheap" amp in your home, as long as you keep quiet about it and don't mention it on the forum.
2) You claim that the point of the forum is for people to take audio to some mythical limit - regardless of cost, or logic.
3) You claim none of my "designs" are original. But this is a claim I myself have made, and I thoroughly agree with you. Anyone who claims to have an original tube circuit is full of ****.
4) You say that, due to your age, you have advanced the state of home audio reproduction. This is amazing considering that nobody living has ever seen a Frank DeGrove amp. They must all be in the hands of private collectors...
5) Finally you wrap up by saying that you will continue to spout nonsense indefinitely. I admire your gusto, I suppose...
Joel
fdegrove said:
Utterly incoherant.
But let me try to list your points...
1) You say that it's ok to build a "cheap" amp in your home, as long as you keep quiet about it and don't mention it on the forum.
2) You claim that the point of the forum is for people to take audio to some mythical limit - regardless of cost, or logic.
3) You claim none of my "designs" are original. But this is a claim I myself have made, and I thoroughly agree with you. Anyone who claims to have an original tube circuit is full of ****.
4) You say that, due to your age, you have advanced the state of home audio reproduction. This is amazing considering that nobody living has ever seen a Frank DeGrove amp. They must all be in the hands of private collectors...
5) Finally you wrap up by saying that you will continue to spout nonsense indefinitely. I admire your gusto, I suppose...
Joel
Hi Brett,
Thomas is using the AER full range driver AER . These are Lowther style drivers made properly That is they have a balanced sound. BD-designs have a great forum covering the use of AER drivers and Bert has developed his own versions of the drivers for his own designs BD-Designs . I'm building a Quasar at present - I had a small input into the Quasars design so I'm biased but I think the AER drivers are the best drivers I have ever heard and take the art of sound reproduction via loudspeakers to another level...
ciao
Jmaes
Thomas is using the AER full range driver AER . These are Lowther style drivers made properly
That is they have a balanced sound. BD-designs have a great forum covering the use of AER drivers and Bert has developed his own versions of the drivers for his own designs BD-Designs . I'm building a Quasar at present - I had a small input into the Quasars design so I'm biased but I think the AER drivers are the best drivers I have ever heard and take the art of sound reproduction via loudspeakers to another level...ciao
Jmaes
James D. said:Hi Brett,
Thomas is using the AER full range driver AER . These are Lowther style drivers made properly
ciao
Jmaes
Hi James,
I have limited expereince with Lowthers, predominantly in Medallion and Acousta enclosures (IIRC), and with PM_A drivers. What I've heard isn't my cup'o'cha, but I understand what people like about them. What I'd really like to hear is an Oris 150 or an Azura. I keep meaning to contact the local Lowther club to see if someone in Brisvegas has some that I could go and listen to. The Lowthers, let alone the AERs are out of my price range at this time, but I reckon in a year I'd be able to get an Oris/Azura setup if I so choose. My concern is, do they rock?
Cheers
PS: Thomas, I'd still be interested in knowing the name of the cabs you have the AERs in.
hi Brett,
its a UK made ambassador original Box. Not OEM, its lowther made.
thanks
Thomas
P.S. I love this more than the DX4 I previous made.
I feel the AER full range driver is more balance than the Original Lowther made.
I try the lam horn already in my friends home. But the detail of low freq still AER the best.
thanks
Thomas
its a UK made ambassador original Box. Not OEM, its lowther made.
thanks
Thomas
P.S. I love this more than the DX4 I previous made.
I feel the AER full range driver is more balance than the Original Lowther made.
I try the lam horn already in my friends home. But the detail of low freq still AER the best.
thanks
Thomas
Hi Brett,
I agree with you completely on Lowthers. I really do not like them at all.
Over the years I have grown increasingly disenchanted by speakers with cross-overs and wanted to get back to the coherence that my first speakers had - these were all full range units of many different types... so I started an exhaustive and exhausting search for the best full range units I could find - I was lucky in that Europe has many excellent manufacturers of full range units. I settled on the AER units - actually I was stunned by their excellence And they have an impedance of 14ohms - mainly resistive and a 20Hz to 22KHz bandwidth. They are too good to be true They are very transparent and have superb natural tone so perfect for driving with a valve amp - and since the top and bottom ends aren't truncated they show the real benefit of Class A PP IT amplifiers....
I can't wait to get mine finished!
I heard the AERs in Oris horns and they are brilliant! The Quasars should have much of the same quality but be more relaxed and a little less focused...
ciao
James
I agree with you completely on Lowthers. I really do not like them at all.
Over the years I have grown increasingly disenchanted by speakers with cross-overs and wanted to get back to the coherence that my first speakers had - these were all full range units of many different types... so I started an exhaustive and exhausting search for the best full range units I could find - I was lucky in that Europe has many excellent manufacturers of full range units. I settled on the AER units - actually I was stunned by their excellence
And they have an impedance of 14ohms - mainly resistive and a 20Hz to 22KHz bandwidth. They are too good to be true They are very transparent and have superb natural tone so perfect for driving with a valve amp - and since the top and bottom ends aren't truncated they show the real benefit of Class A PP IT amplifiers....I can't wait to get mine finished!
I heard the AERs in Oris horns and they are brilliant! The Quasars should have much of the same quality but be more relaxed and a little less focused...
ciao
James
hi james,
U are lucky,
in hong kong its very difficult to have a place to use oris.
I also love them.
I think, if the cheaper one, fostex alnico also a good choice.
But there was alittle opinion.
I test several oem box for lowthers already.
Don't use MDF or HDF.
The sound will very dum & not musical.
thnaks
Thomas
U are lucky,
in hong kong its very difficult to have a place to use oris.
I also love them.
I think, if the cheaper one, fostex alnico also a good choice.
But there was alittle opinion.
I test several oem box for lowthers already.
Don't use MDF or HDF.
The sound will very dum & not musical.
thnaks
Thomas
James D. said:I settled on the AER units - actually I was stunned by their excellence
I can't wait to get mine finished!
I heard the AERs in Oris horns and they are brilliant! The Quasars should have much of the same quality but be more relaxed and a little less focused...
ciao
James
Hi James,
Please let us know more about them when they're finished. The single driver (with helpers) appeals to me in some ways, but really good ones are expensive, and I have a large room (14m x 7m x 7m vaulted ceiling), so direct radiators sound too small/compressed. And being single , several cu metres of speaker is OK.
As for PP IT amps, I have two running at the moment. One is a KT88 running quite low and hot (320Va-k, 95mA), and the other is an 813 triode running about 600V / 85mA. Very nice, very, very nice. Neither have the zener regulation in place yet, and the 813 only has the LC rather than LCLCLCLC filament supply so there's a little hum.
I confess to having impure thoughts though; I've been looking at an 813 verion of the Outerlimit, a <i>parafeed</i>. Oh, the shame of it all.
Thomas,
Those Ambassador cabinets look great, beautiful pieces of furniture. I presume they're from the late 40's or 50's? I'd seen some pictures before, but never had a name to put to them.
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