Heres a few more crappy modern recordings for the record
The latest Robbie Williams CD. I bought it for my wife - I don't normally listen to his stuff but this recording really just flat, flat flat. Horrible
Adele 21. Could have been superb but also compressed and flat
Worst Ive heard was REM Accellerate. Absolute crap - wall of noise/sound.
I have the original Ry Cooder (Bop 'til you Drop') Vinyl and on CD which I was told was the first ever recording that was digitally recorded and matered (3M machine?) and quite frankly I dont think its too bad. Lots of space and you can listen into the mix very well. I have not listened to the vinyl for about 15 years (I bought it in about '83 IIRC) and the CD I got about 10 years ago - it may have been remixed from the original - I dont know.
The latest Robbie Williams CD. I bought it for my wife - I don't normally listen to his stuff but this recording really just flat, flat flat. Horrible
Adele 21. Could have been superb but also compressed and flat
Worst Ive heard was REM Accellerate. Absolute crap - wall of noise/sound.
I have the original Ry Cooder (Bop 'til you Drop') Vinyl and on CD which I was told was the first ever recording that was digitally recorded and matered (3M machine?) and quite frankly I dont think its too bad. Lots of space and you can listen into the mix very well. I have not listened to the vinyl for about 15 years (I bought it in about '83 IIRC) and the CD I got about 10 years ago - it may have been remixed from the original - I dont know.
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I know I've asked this question before but where do you get these supa dupa recordings and are there any of them which are musically satisfying?
So far, there's been mention of a small number of Telarcs but I'm not sure 'musically satisfying' describes those.
Do the 'hi end' only listen to "direct disc vinyl, 30ips, or 18ips 35mm film, full track analog master recording, or the VERY HIGHEST DIGITAL (96K or better)"? Pretty sad if they do.
I'm still interested in SACDs which will allow me to repeat Myers & Meyer for a specific detail which I investigated 3 decades ago .. whether restricted bandwidth actually sounds better. (Full track analog masters were the best sources I used then.)
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That album is recoverable ... requires a high level of tune though. I deliberately bought the CD because of everyone's bucketing of the recording; it's not so much compressed, but over-processed, which means the slightest abberation in playback is terribly fatiguing.
It actually sounds over-dynamic in many places, overcooked I used once here. The trick is to be able to get the processing to reproduce 100% cleanly, and then you can listen past it to the underlying sound, so to speak ...
Frank
This early 90's Eureka project was taxpayer (EU) funded. I remember asking Laurie when he presented his preliminary results, when he would publish and he gave a very vague answer. The only stuff in the public domain was published by Soren Bech. IIRC, not in the AES. May be in some B&O literature.
If you find out, please send me a PM. Rhonda Wilson, the BiQuad Queen, did the DSP.
I worked with Andy Jones at KEF. He wasn't involved in design until I left to become a beach bum in 1998. The strange thing at KEF was that Laurie kept Research entirely separate from Development and never the twain shall meet.
TAD was a good move for Andy.
When I joined, Andy was the only Research person left and there was zilch stuff on Eureka in their records and none of the speaker designers knew anything about it or the activities of Research. In fact zilch of the research stuff was left. Laurie took it all away when he went to the rebel colonies.
Though Dick Small was there for several years, none of the KEF designers knew how to do bass reflex speakers properly.
I now have a third corroboration of "stereo sounds awful in anechoics" to go with my experimental results & the BBC. Thanks for this, Shaman.
Asinus asinum fricat.compressed bad music usually sound good on compressed bad systems ....
What is your point ? This tune is as intended by the producer. "Wall of sound". Drums and basses are OK, and so the 'Marshall 100W' rythmic guitar. Screaming voices are processed the way they wanted to be, and under-mixed to give an 'overkill level' feeling. There is no so much compression, apart voices, saturated guitars compress themselves and makes a 'carpet'. But you can follow each instrument, if you want.Nice try ... I was thinking about a more challenging one: Foo Fighters - White Limo - YouTube ...
Just boring punk-metal music, on my point of view, tiring because no grove, no relief and nothing new, but i would not call that a 'bad sounding' production. It's pretty well done, under the laws of such.
I believe the two are the same master (i have them) and it is a nice way to compare the clone CD to the vinyl and get an idea of what is lost on vinyl
Very nice recording, indeed, and a masterpiece, with marvelous guitars and very natural drums and voices. It was a shock, at this time, we where not used to can hear the instruments so separated and easy to follow. Despite something a little "empty" at the end of the note's reverberations, it was for me a revelation, and dedicated-me to digital forever. And i love this guy, Ry Cooder, both the generous and modest guy and the amazing virtuoso and sensitive musician.
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About "Bop t'ill you drop", i was at the concert Ry Cooder gave in Paris at this time. Believe-me or not, it was better than the album, black rhythmic and chords with an *incredible* grove and the sound was perfect. Ry was back, as usual, escaping the spotlight. A real group feeling and diamond music.
At a moment, the front PA system stopped to work. Musicians did'nt noticed-it, because stage monitoring was still ok. The audience (All the guitarists of our country) began to protest, untill Ry noticed-it. He was very upset and affraid, because he believed a moment it was against him, until a roady explained the problem to him. At the same time the audience understood what was happening to him and was screaming "we love-you".
Well after some minutes, the things were fixed, and the concert was yet better till the end. Something special.
Now, the end of the story: after the 2 or 3 'bis', the musicians left the stage and the theater. And the roadies dismantled the PA system and instruments. But the audience refused to leave the theater, stamping in rhythm during more than half an hour.
Until Ry and his musicians came back from their hotel in bathrobe.
They improvised during an other 20 minutes, sitting on the edge of the stage, with acoustic guitars and percussions, no PA.
Ry was near unable to sing, his eyes full of tears, his voice quavering of emotion. This concert was one of the greatest moments of my life.
I believe it is the same for him.
At a moment, the front PA system stopped to work. Musicians did'nt noticed-it, because stage monitoring was still ok. The audience (All the guitarists of our country) began to protest, untill Ry noticed-it. He was very upset and affraid, because he believed a moment it was against him, until a roady explained the problem to him. At the same time the audience understood what was happening to him and was screaming "we love-you".
Well after some minutes, the things were fixed, and the concert was yet better till the end. Something special.
Now, the end of the story: after the 2 or 3 'bis', the musicians left the stage and the theater. And the roadies dismantled the PA system and instruments. But the audience refused to leave the theater, stamping in rhythm during more than half an hour.
Until Ry and his musicians came back from their hotel in bathrobe.
They improvised during an other 20 minutes, sitting on the edge of the stage, with acoustic guitars and percussions, no PA.
Ry was near unable to sing, his eyes full of tears, his voice quavering of emotion. This concert was one of the greatest moments of my life.
I believe it is the same for him.
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Ricardo, thanks for the hint.
The project was this
Project - EUREKA
Eureka imposes no requirement for publishing. I couldn’t locate any research paper related to this, not even on the Danish university’s site
Some interesting and unrelated side-outcome from my search
About KEF - KEF Topics - KEF United Kingdom
http://www.kef.com/uploads/files/en/series_pdf/q_tech_explained_010910_en.pdf
http://www.roymorgan.com/resources/pdf/papers/20051103.pdf
Cristophe
Thanks for the story.
Great experience, lucky you.
George
Bop till you drop was not the first digital album on the market, but was said as the first multitrack digitaly recorded and mixed. On a 3M Mincom System:
"32-track deck (16-bit, 50 kHz audio) running 1-inch tape and a 4-track, 1/2-inch mastering recorder.
Both machines operated at 45 ips, offering a 30-minute record time from a 7,200-foot, 12.5-inch reel or 45-minutes from a 14-inch, 9,600-foot spool. As no true 16-bit converters were available, it combined separate 12-bit and 8-bit converters to create 16-bit performance."
"32-track deck (16-bit, 50 kHz audio) running 1-inch tape and a 4-track, 1/2-inch mastering recorder.
Both machines operated at 45 ips, offering a 30-minute record time from a 7,200-foot, 12.5-inch reel or 45-minutes from a 14-inch, 9,600-foot spool. As no true 16-bit converters were available, it combined separate 12-bit and 8-bit converters to create 16-bit performance."
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Well, I come from an era where this sort of technique, of "fill every available space" with sound is extremely foreign, listening to an album like this at a good volume level is like having a physical assault enacted against one's body. I've been to many pubs, etc, where the PA, just a few feet away, of the rock band is deafening, but I don't get the sense of being aggressively battered as this modern type of mastering creates.
So, I aim to create some space between the notes, between the sounds, so that I can make sense of its structure. Foo Fighters material is much, much harder to tame -- part of the "problem" is that my system doesn't shirk from delivering the dynamics, which translates in this case to battering ram characteristics. And, the guitar sounds are heavily processed; I have plenty of Marshall amp material which is a million miles from this ...
Frank
Here's an article by Tom Fine on history of digital recordings:
www.aes.org/aeshc/pdf/fine_dawn-of-digital.pdf
FYI - Tom's parents gave us what is known as "Living Presence" sound.
www.aes.org/aeshc/pdf/fine_dawn-of-digital.pdf
FYI - Tom's parents gave us what is known as "Living Presence" sound.
I agree with you Frank, but I suspect that every older generation says some such comment about the younger generation's music - it's just the way the world works
Had a quick look ... a key phrase: "Ensure that the reproduction system is sufficient" ... a mighty big chasm opens at that point ... how valid is anything beyond, if such a vague description is made of the key part, that which is at the core of the experiments?
I've just been playing with a DSD media player, on "audiophile" DSD files, and the variation in quality over PC speakers, depending on the precise settings of the software buffering, etc, was absolutely remarkable -- chalk and cheese. Now, if I was just asked to supply DSD quality sound for an experiment I could easily compromise, twist the results by making sure the "settings" were such that the subjective quality would favour one outcome over another. But, I'm sure that if someone did the "sufficiency" tests nothing would give my little manipulation away ...
Frank
I believe we did the same impression to the previous generations when we came on the scene.
Something very personal.
Don't look for anything like hifi in there. Just pieces of witness live recordings with two mikes on a cassette desk or Revox placed on my little PA mixing desk. (We where poor freaks)
The only thing that remains of all the concerts of KIDS, my friends i was touring with during the 70s. My family.
(The last tune is not live, it was a 'one take' test tape in studio, not recorded by me)
The tapes are very old and destroyed by the time. But that is where my life began and ended in a way.
Play-it loud, we where playing loud
http://www.esperado.fr/images/stories/musiques/Kids_Final3.mp3:
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I think you actually hit the nail on the head on the Adele recording: it is very fatiguing. Its a pity, because I can imagine with a good mix it could have been so much better.
"I believe the two are the same master (i have them) and it is a nice way to compare the clone CD to the vinyl and get an idea of what is lost on vinyl
Very nice recording, indeed, and a masterpiece, with marvelous guitars and very natural drums and voices. It was a shock, at this time, we where not used to can hear the instruments so separated and easy to follow. Despite something a little "empty" at the end of the note's reverberations, it was for me a revelation, and dedicated-me to digital forever. And i love this guy, Ry Cooder, both the generous and modest guy and the amazing virtuoso and sensitive musician."
Yes, I have a lot of his albums and I think they are all well recorded. Agree - he is a great guy as well (very funny also with a thing for UFO's and aliens!)
Very nice recording, indeed, and a masterpiece, with marvelous guitars and very natural drums and voices. It was a shock, at this time, we where not used to can hear the instruments so separated and easy to follow. Despite something a little "empty" at the end of the note's reverberations, it was for me a revelation, and dedicated-me to digital forever. And i love this guy, Ry Cooder, both the generous and modest guy and the amazing virtuoso and sensitive musician."
Yes, I have a lot of his albums and I think they are all well recorded. Agree - he is a great guy as well (very funny also with a thing for UFO's and aliens!)
Is it not interesting how some of the guys in the article talk about 'something special about the sound'. LOL!
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