The point is, that the sound being live is clearly distinguishable in spite of the type of recording, there are very clear characteristics to the quality of it. Which are usually missing in a similar quality recording, of a system playback - yes, those "huge defects" scream at you.
Which would partly be explained by the fact that the YouTube video has less information in it, so your ears have to work harder to make sense of what you're hearing - you can't compensate as easily for the flaws as you normally would be able to, if you were listening to that system playing back, live. The photocopy analogy comes to mind, a copy of a copy has passed the point of everything making sense - that slight defect in the original has been magnified by going through 2 rounds of mimicking.
Which would partly be explained by the fact that the YouTube video has less information in it, so your ears have to work harder to make sense of what you're hearing - you can't compensate as easily for the flaws as you normally would be able to, if you were listening to that system playing back, live. The photocopy analogy comes to mind, a copy of a copy has passed the point of everything making sense - that slight defect in the original has been magnified by going through 2 rounds of mimicking.
Yeah, perfect for evaluations.
IIRC Tom Danley advocates recording and reamping....if that cycle can tolerate three or more generations the speakers are decent, and most fail two generations.
Awful (and boring) recording, but yes that barkiness kills vocals and high mids......I pity anybody who has to monitor all day on those.
Dan.
Has anyone considered the peak acoustic power 4 brass instruments can produce?
Brass instrument (lip reed) acoustics: an introduction
Brass instrument (lip reed) acoustics: an introduction
I think many of us who have grown up around horn loaded systems would identify that horn shout even if you had to do it blind, it would be so obvious you were listening to a horn loaded mid/high end sound. What I would predict without any measurements is that the horn is beaming at the higher frequencies, and the output at the lower end is out of balance with the higher frequencies, the output is rising near the horns 1/4 wavelength cutoff. Very typical mid horn sound with a compression driver. This is one of the reasons so long ago I developed cone driven horns and got away from using a compression driver down low in the mids, this is just what we have heard from the earliest days of two way A7's and such forever. With an incredible effort in the network and lots of eq you can tame that somewhat but you would still recognize that sound before you would even enter a room.
That picture I put up days ago of that stack of horns shows what I was doing in the late 70's, I was working with cone loaded mid horns, and even at that I was using much smaller cone diameters than was the norm in pro-audio even with those few who were trying to do something similar. The larger driver sizes used by others at the time caused the same problem of compression driver/horn combinations and would be very directional as the frequency was rising due to very poor directivity control. The mid horns were using 10" cones both the single 10" unit and the dual 10" unit. By a year later after showing those designs at an AES convention I was seeing others move in that direction. And remember those designs were actually intended for PA use and not for a home system.
That picture I put up days ago of that stack of horns shows what I was doing in the late 70's, I was working with cone loaded mid horns, and even at that I was using much smaller cone diameters than was the norm in pro-audio even with those few who were trying to do something similar. The larger driver sizes used by others at the time caused the same problem of compression driver/horn combinations and would be very directional as the frequency was rising due to very poor directivity control. The mid horns were using 10" cones both the single 10" unit and the dual 10" unit. By a year later after showing those designs at an AES convention I was seeing others move in that direction. And remember those designs were actually intended for PA use and not for a home system.
What are we going to do, tell all those horn players that their horns are distorting and they shouldn't play loud? We surely aren't going to change the way the wind instruments work at this point and we are accustomed to how they sound, we just accept that sound as right, what we would expect.
On the other end of the spectrum I was reading something late last night showing not only the spl output of some of these horns, up into the 150db range but also the level that some of the microphones can handle and they can do this without compression or distortion but nobody in their right mind would reproduce the sound at 150db out of a speaker. That was at 1" from the end of the horns exit. Production of live music from an instrument is not the same as reproduction, we wouldn't ever put our ear 1" from the end of a Trumpet if we want to keep our ears but at a distance we could listen in a live environment. Now to get those dynamic levels in playback is the trick within reason. Miles Davis had a dynamic range while playing live that went from barely audible to screaming in the same piece, I saw him play while he was still alive, a good friend of someone I know personally.
On the other end of the spectrum I was reading something late last night showing not only the spl output of some of these horns, up into the 150db range but also the level that some of the microphones can handle and they can do this without compression or distortion but nobody in their right mind would reproduce the sound at 150db out of a speaker. That was at 1" from the end of the horns exit. Production of live music from an instrument is not the same as reproduction, we wouldn't ever put our ear 1" from the end of a Trumpet if we want to keep our ears but at a distance we could listen in a live environment. Now to get those dynamic levels in playback is the trick within reason. Miles Davis had a dynamic range while playing live that went from barely audible to screaming in the same piece, I saw him play while he was still alive, a good friend of someone I know personally.
Never mind that.
I had a customer who was an opera singer come into my shop to pick up his repair, whilst my mother was there.
Of course she encouraged him to do the three tenors finale thing.
I stood 3m away and the suspended wooden floor was buzzing my feet and my ears were crackling.
That gave me new respect for acoustic power requirements.
Dan.
Last edited:
No. BUT.... I've heard a gang of them on stage and wondered why they were being mic'ed at all. In the venue played, it is more than loud enough without the PA. One reason not to sit up front, close and personal. Just one horn is really loud in front of it.
Which brings up the point of dynamic range.... on recordings and in playback at home. ?? Realizing we dont need nor want to play at realistic levels (opera singers or horns or kick drums etc). But we ought to be able to handle it at respectable levels without problems --- compression, distortion, clipping etc.
-RNM
Last edited:
Well opera singers are trained to fill a theatre without reinforcement (even if these days you can't get away from hidden PA). Not suprising it was loud if you were far closer than he was setup for!
No, nao non and nein.
Put the blame on poorly designed Horns, or defective drivers.
My horn is calculated on spherical waves (before J.M Le Clearc'h, but similar concept). Circular, and in massive wood.
The driver we chosen was a JBL 1" one (2426J). Notice that, because manufacturing defects of those units, we were obliged to go at Harman's stock, at this time, to measure the ones we wanted before to order them, and half of them were rejected.
Response curve is without accident, but descending, so need to be corrected (we did-it the passive way). Once done, apart the very high efficiency and the transients it is able to reproduce, i can assure you will never notice the kind of sound we usually credit to horns (Duck voices, nasal etc...). Very natural, and airy, on the contrary. With an impressive presence.
I had suffered long enough with all those poor horns in studio monitors (JBL, Tannoy, UREI etc.), I can't suffer them any more.
Last edited:
Christophe,
As you just said you got very tired of the sound of the most famous manufacturers of all those horns used in PA and in studio monitors. As you say it was poor design and poor electronics to go with that. I agree it doesn't have to sound that way but it is what most people think of when you say horns. I was one of those people who showed horns at a CES convention and many would have a predisposition to not even want to listen, it was a horn, they must sound bad. They surely didn't but it took some convincing to get them to get past their prejudices. My friend was an engineer at Radian at one time so he knew the problems with their drivers and how to overcome them. I designed the horns and though they are not wood the rigid thick walled PU materials I used were as close to wood as you can get, the horns don't sound like an aluminum horn. At the same time my friend did things that at the time I had no idea what he was doing in the network, all passive with notch filter, and a slope function that took me some time to understand. So he eq'd the system right in the networks so we wouldn't have those problems. I also used a mid range horn with a cone driver and that took care of the bottom end. Both horns had identical radiation patterns so that also helped to integrate the two horns together. Have fun trying to get PA guys to use round horns, that isn't going to happen and some of the LeClearc'h shapes are to radical an idea for so many to comprehend. I do understand that and drew things like that years ago but didn't have the modeling software to truly be able to design one properly at the time.
That dual diaphragm JBL driver is truly a rip-off of another design, they made enough changes to get around a patent held by others who were their suppliers at one time.
Their quality control is aimed more at appearance than anything else, that is what they care about, the technical stuff they just "market" around.
PS. I did change to TAD compression drivers later as I just don't like the sound of the Radian drivers, to many known issues they never seem to fix. At the same time TAD drivers are now way to expensive to use in anything but a esoteric audiophile product. Not many know that they also had some serious issues at one point where they soldered the aluminum voice-coil wire to the lead-out wires, a common failure mode at one time.
As you just said you got very tired of the sound of the most famous manufacturers of all those horns used in PA and in studio monitors. As you say it was poor design and poor electronics to go with that. I agree it doesn't have to sound that way but it is what most people think of when you say horns. I was one of those people who showed horns at a CES convention and many would have a predisposition to not even want to listen, it was a horn, they must sound bad. They surely didn't but it took some convincing to get them to get past their prejudices. My friend was an engineer at Radian at one time so he knew the problems with their drivers and how to overcome them. I designed the horns and though they are not wood the rigid thick walled PU materials I used were as close to wood as you can get, the horns don't sound like an aluminum horn. At the same time my friend did things that at the time I had no idea what he was doing in the network, all passive with notch filter, and a slope function that took me some time to understand. So he eq'd the system right in the networks so we wouldn't have those problems. I also used a mid range horn with a cone driver and that took care of the bottom end. Both horns had identical radiation patterns so that also helped to integrate the two horns together. Have fun trying to get PA guys to use round horns, that isn't going to happen and some of the LeClearc'h shapes are to radical an idea for so many to comprehend. I do understand that and drew things like that years ago but didn't have the modeling software to truly be able to design one properly at the time.
That dual diaphragm JBL driver is truly a rip-off of another design, they made enough changes to get around a patent held by others who were their suppliers at one time.
Their quality control is aimed more at appearance than anything else, that is what they care about, the technical stuff they just "market" around.
PS. I did change to TAD compression drivers later as I just don't like the sound of the Radian drivers, to many known issues they never seem to fix. At the same time TAD drivers are now way to expensive to use in anything but a esoteric audiophile product. Not many know that they also had some serious issues at one point where they soldered the aluminum voice-coil wire to the lead-out wires, a common failure mode at one time.
Last edited:
Hand-in-Hand Phase and Group Delay Pro Sound Training
In well designed speaker systems, a Major problem is GD at low end... low freq. only ----->
EQ of GD
Another way is to extend the FR of speakers to very low Freq and then GD will be lowered down to lowest music freq.
-RNM
In well designed speaker systems, a Major problem is GD at low end... low freq. only ----->
EQ of GD Another way is to extend the FR of speakers to very low Freq and then GD will be lowered down to lowest music freq.
-RNM
Last edited:
Richard,
The question becomes how you correct some of the phase response without then changing the FR? It seems to be a balancing act, move one and move the other. It seems the only place you can do some of these things is in the digital domain. in the analog domain you typically seems to affect one with the other. Multi-band graphic equalization is a perfect example of this, fix the FR and make a mess of the phase response.
The question becomes how you correct some of the phase response without then changing the FR? It seems to be a balancing act, move one and move the other. It seems the only place you can do some of these things is in the digital domain. in the analog domain you typically seems to affect one with the other. Multi-band graphic equalization is a perfect example of this, fix the FR and make a mess of the phase response.
yes, however, the freq response hearing sensitivity is low down there So, you can have some variation down there for better quality of sound.
And, lower the F3 point, as I just added above.
Beyond those two, its all DSP. But try those two first and see how well you can do.
THx-RNMarsh
And, lower the F3 point, as I just added above.
Beyond those two, its all DSP. But try those two first and see how well you can do.
THx-RNMarsh
Last edited:
Kindhornman, you are spot on regarding prejudices.
Here, as soon as you say "titanium dome tweeter", people shrink away as if you had the pleague because they were told that such drivers cannot sound good. They are beyond reasoning that there are such drivers for €10 and €90, and think of them all built into cheap speakers with questionable crossovers attached.. You have to struggle to get them to even listen, you need to produce waterfall graphs showing that such tweeters have a much better behavior than what they think are good tweeters, like the Audax silk dome much (mis)used in many Brtish speakers from the early 90ies, as watefall graphs very clearly show.
Prejudice is audio's No.1 bugbear, always was.
Here, as soon as you say "titanium dome tweeter", people shrink away as if you had the pleague because they were told that such drivers cannot sound good. They are beyond reasoning that there are such drivers for €10 and €90, and think of them all built into cheap speakers with questionable crossovers attached.. You have to struggle to get them to even listen, you need to produce waterfall graphs showing that such tweeters have a much better behavior than what they think are good tweeters, like the Audax silk dome much (mis)used in many Brtish speakers from the early 90ies, as watefall graphs very clearly show.
Prejudice is audio's No.1 bugbear, always was.
Nothing quite like Tower of Power... or Chicago, Tiajuana Brass for horn sections.
I remember seeing Johnny Reno and the Sax Maniacs at a venue.
They had some nice original music. During one of the breaks I
asked the guys in the horn section if they could do some of the
Tower of Power songs that were a lot of fun to listen to and dance
to. They said unfortunaltely no, Johnny wouldn't do them, that he
didn't want to be a cover band. Then went on to explain the reason
why he became a horn player to begin with was Tower of Power.
This is where the art of recording comes into play. All
these instruments can and do distort during a gig/performance.
Though most classical and chamber type don't push to distortion.
We have to have the bass for the foundation.
Then there is micing horn sections....close and another about 12 inches
away of the close mic gets too hot - distorted.
In the venue's always interesting to stand infront/back of the sound board,
then walk around from one side to the other, then work your way to the back
from side to side in an S shape. Is what I do. Then I go back to the sweet spot
and hang out.
I typically always have to use foam ear plugs because of loudness distortion "Bilsom" 400 x 2 per box.
For the symphony, that is another story, I'll get the cheap seat then go down
to the main floor when possible.
Always, good ear training.
I remember seeing Johnny Reno and the Sax Maniacs at a venue.
They had some nice original music. During one of the breaks I
asked the guys in the horn section if they could do some of the
Tower of Power songs that were a lot of fun to listen to and dance
to. They said unfortunaltely no, Johnny wouldn't do them, that he
didn't want to be a cover band. Then went on to explain the reason
why he became a horn player to begin with was Tower of Power.
This is where the art of recording comes into play. All
these instruments can and do distort during a gig/performance.
Though most classical and chamber type don't push to distortion.
We have to have the bass for the foundation.
Then there is micing horn sections....close and another about 12 inches
away of the close mic gets too hot - distorted.
In the venue's always interesting to stand infront/back of the sound board,
then walk around from one side to the other, then work your way to the back
from side to side in an S shape. Is what I do. Then I go back to the sweet spot
and hang out.
I typically always have to use foam ear plugs because of loudness distortion "Bilsom" 400 x 2 per box.
For the symphony, that is another story, I'll get the cheap seat then go down
to the main floor when possible.
Always, good ear training.
Viewing the Phase Response
Signals are always delayed when they pass through a system component. This delay can be independent of frequency (a pure delay) or it can be frequency-dependent.
Richard,
Could this be the real delay that John is asking about? It comes from the link you just posted.
Signals are always delayed when they pass through a system component. This delay can be independent of frequency (a pure delay) or it can be frequency-dependent.
Richard,
Could this be the real delay that John is asking about? It comes from the link you just posted.
Ahhh - I'm Italian-challenged. I can read the pictures, seems technically a good driver, but what do they say about the sound? There's also a closing para whether the € 36k is justified - what is the conclusion?
Jan
- Status
- Not open for further replies.