PMC TLE1 style sub - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Loudspeakers > Subwoofers

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 19th March 2007, 10:09 PM   #1
Dr_EM is offline Dr_EM  United Kingdom
diyAudio Member
 
Dr_EM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Swindon
Default PMC TLE1 style sub

I'm keen on making a sub similar in design to the PMC TLE1:

http://www.pmcloudspeaker.com/tle1.html

I really like the design both aesthetically and in it's nature. The idea of deep extending, low distortion bass is very appealing .

I am looking at the Morel HU631 for drivers. They are the right dimensions, a reasonable price and have specs (just about) suitable for a TL design. They are also readily available to me :

http://www.morelhifi.com/products/pdf/hu%20631.pdf

The relatively low QMS might be less than optimal though . Qes and (presumably most critically) Qts fall into the suggested range though.

I found this calculator to help design the TL with. I'm not 100% on the tuning though; would you tune it to the lowest frequency you need, or does it need to relate to the drivers resonant frequency somehow? I'm also unsure on the exact meaning of some of the terms.

http://www.mhsoft.nl/spk_calc.asp#transmissionline

Width ca. is presumably the width of the cabinet? With 2 drivers the total SD is 238CM, which gives a reasonable value of 23.76cm assuming that is indeed what it is.

I'm not sure on the meaning of "Opening behind driver"?

The TML opening = the total driver SD and just refers to the size of opening at the end of the line?

Is that calculator especially relevant to folded line designs? I assume it'll still behave similarly or do the folds slow it down and thus make the required line shorter?

Any opinions? Would love to try it if it's likely to work properly
  Reply With Quote
Old 21st March 2007, 01:27 AM   #2
Account disabled at member's request
 
MJL21193's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
This is an attractive looking sub. Using two 6.5" drivers makes for a very slim box. The issue I have is that they clain to have a true TM line of 3 metres inside. That would make the line very narrow. Martin J. King ( TML Guru) advises the start of the line should be equal to SD and taper inwards to the end for best results.
Having built TML speakers before based on his research, I have to agree.
With that said I am sure that the sub sounds good. I just have to question is there is an easier way to achieve the same results. IMO yes.
http://www.quarter-wave.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 21st March 2007, 11:14 PM   #3
Dr_EM is offline Dr_EM  United Kingdom
diyAudio Member
 
Dr_EM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Swindon
Thanks for your reply

Yes, I am arriving at numbers around 3 metres with that calculator too (which makes sense with my tuning being 22hz and the driver SD by nature being almost identical to the PMC design). So you are suggesting a shorter line may yeild the same results? That is an interesting idea. I don't mind making the sub slightly deeper to fit the full line in if it is worth doing though.

The start of the line should have a cross section of 238CM for those drivers then? The final opening should also be 238CM? Does the line need to remain at 238CM cross section throughout or not, if it tapers inwards then it'll somehow need to go out again for the opening to be the correct size; or should it be a bit smaller?

The articles on that page are a bit high level for me . How would I decide the tuning? Can it be anything (like the 22hz of the PMC design), or does it somehow need to relate to the Fs (though 22hz is actually half the driver Fs in this case).
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd March 2007, 01:25 AM   #4
Account disabled at member's request
 
MJL21193's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Sorry, by tapers I mean narrows. Cross section area should reduce to half SD( around 100-140 sq. cm) I was not saying that the whole line will fit in the box, the box is too small. The definition of TL is blurry with several different interpretations floating around. I, and thousand of others, subscribe to Martin King's definition. He has produced scientific models for TL speakers that have been proven accurate.
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd March 2007, 02:48 AM   #5
frugal-phile(tm)
diyAudio Moderator
 
planet10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Victoria, BC, NA, Sol III
Blog Entries: 5
That calculator is useless. It is based on obselete classical TL methodology.

1st off Sd has nothing to do with a TL (unfortunately Martin chose it as a variable unit of area which confuses things). The parameter that is important -- just like in every other kind of box -- is the Vas.And as soon as you taper the line it has to get shorter.

And why, with 2 drivers, would you not mount the drivers push-push? The benefts are so large that it seems totally a waste.

Click the image to open in full size.

I'll alert Scott to have a look at your app.

dave
__________________
community sites t-linespeakers.org, frugal-horn.com, frugal-phile.com ........ commercial site planet10-HiFi
p10-hifi forum here at diyA
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd March 2007, 03:32 AM   #6
Account disabled at member's request
 
MJL21193's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Quote:"That calculator is useless. It is based on obselete classical TL methodology."
Dave:
You are refering to the MHSOFT link in post#1? Not Martin King's mathcad models?
I worked with those models for 3 months to design the speakers that I am currently using. The drivers are the Scanspeak D2905/9300 and the Vifa PL18WO0908. I have smooth bass response down to ~28Hz. Nothing like a vented box.
I also buildt a TL with an old MAX Pentivent 12" with an impossibly high VAS (338) that in every other box configuration sounds like crap. In the 120" TL, it found a home, impersonating a 15"
As you can tell, im a firm believer.
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd March 2007, 07:53 AM   #7
frugal-phile(tm)
diyAudio Moderator
 
planet10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Victoria, BC, NA, Sol III
Blog Entries: 5
Quote:
Originally posted by MJL21193
ou are refering to the MHSOFT link in post#1? Not Martin King's mathcad models?
Yes. Martin's models (seconded by Augspurger's) have clearly shown the pitfalls associated with using classical TL design methodology (as in the link in the 1st post). If you look at the most successful classic TLs, it is clear they trial & erred themselves to designs somewhat similar to what we would generate today using MJK. There are also a lot of less successful examples of TLs that are really little more than overly complex aperiodic boxes (not to diss aperiodic boxes which can be VERY good)

dave
__________________
community sites t-linespeakers.org, frugal-horn.com, frugal-phile.com ........ commercial site planet10-HiFi
p10-hifi forum here at diyA
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd March 2007, 11:15 AM   #8
diyAudio Member
 
Scottmoose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: UK
I'll have a look at those drivers & see if we can come up with something in MathCad. Specs look OK for TL loading. Just remember, it's not going to be particularly small! As Dave says, forget that TL calculator. Doesn't work. Especially inaccurate for tapered lines BTW. Tuning frequency of a TL / QWR is dependant upon both length and taper, not just length.
__________________
Community site www.frugal-horn.com Commercial site www.wodendesign.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd March 2007, 01:28 PM   #9
Dr_EM is offline Dr_EM  United Kingdom
diyAudio Member
 
Dr_EM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Swindon
Thanks for the replies

That would be ace if you could figure out some dimensions for those drivers in TL configuration as I'm starting to think I can't very well on my own . I already bought some of the electrical parts for this since there was a special offer at my supplier today, so hopefully I will end up with a useable design.

I don't mind if the cabinet is a little taller or deeper than the PMC model but i'd like to keep it narrow. Thier design is fairly large but has unusual dimensions to give it a smaller appearance (and footprint).

Push pull mounting is an interesting point. I guess the design aspect was considered quite highly so they stuck with having both drivers visable (which looks nicer imo). If there are serious advantages to using push pull configurations in this TL design I might think about it more (especially if it makes it easier to achieve the same results).
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd March 2007, 09:18 PM   #10
frugal-phile(tm)
diyAudio Moderator
 
planet10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Victoria, BC, NA, Sol III
Blog Entries: 5
Quote:
Originally posted by Dr.EM
ush pull mounting is an interesting point. I guess the design aspect was considered quite highly so they stuck with having both drivers visable (which looks nicer imo). If there are serious advantages to using push pull configurations in this TL design I might think about it more (especially if it makes it easier to achieve the same results).
Not push-pull. Push-push. Yes the advantages -- espicially in a woofer -- are so large that one has to think twice about building a woofer with only one driver. Also a push-push arrangement usually allows for the least width.

The morel has a nice basket for push-push but the rear pole-piece vent (a necessary evil in many cases) means you have to allow clearance for that -- you could probably get away with a box 160 mm (6 1/4") wide, which would be less than if front mounted. I'd probably go a bit wider thou or you end up with more issues with the TL fold(s).

And if it is push-push you could get away with 12 or 15 mm plywood which would further shrink the box size.

dave
__________________
community sites t-linespeakers.org, frugal-horn.com, frugal-phile.com ........ commercial site planet10-HiFi
p10-hifi forum here at diyA
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
DNM style urxle Chip Amps 4 10th January 2007 07:25 PM
first sub -- cheap style gmarceau Subwoofers 12 7th July 2006 10:46 PM
BiB style 1/4 wl tqwt? hlj Full Range 0 21st May 2006 09:24 PM
3 way speaker my style classe Multi-Way 3 16th November 2004 05:39 PM
Best speaker style for HT? rsotak Multi-Way 4 12th December 2003 11:21 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 10:13 PM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2