Hello 
I have decided to add stereo subs to my system - nothing too devastating, I'm not after daft SPL or anything like that but after using my HT sub (sealed isobaric using 12s) with my main speakers for a bit, I do prefer the results
However, the HT sub is for HT and isn't usually connected to the main system plus it doesn't do the reproduction any favours IMO - it just isn't a musical sounding sub... Great for explosions and stuff - even dance music at a push but not anything with texture IYSWIM.
So.. Stereo subs seems like the way to go - I can build them but really wanted any thoughts on the best way to integrate them. I don't want a passive system, partly because I don't want to spend the half a million pounds on the components necessary to build a passive 4th order 80Hz crossover... and partly because I'd like to be able to set the cut off frequency based on how they actually sound in the room without swapping out expensive bits and pieces.
I have a choice of a gainclone, a Kenwood KA 5020 or a 60w @ 8 ohms PA amp to run them unless there is a better solution, I have an unused out channel on the preamp so that's all taken care of.
I guess I need an active low pass filter but don't know what's about - I did look for a 2 driver (L+R) plate amp with built in crossover but they all seem to be for a single driver (summed stereo?)
What's out there in terms of a 24db active low pass that I can use? I don't mind building it from a kit but anything paper based is possibly beyond me TBH. I looked at the ESP site and project 9 seems suitable but it's a bare PCB and I'm not experienced enough to work out all the component values and all that.
Is there a plate amp with built in LPF that'll run L+R subs?
I have an active crossover that used to live in the car which did exactly what I would need to do - is it worth experimenting with that or using a similar type of car sub active LPF?
Any ideas welcome
I have decided to add stereo subs to my system - nothing too devastating, I'm not after daft SPL or anything like that but after using my HT sub (sealed isobaric using 12s) with my main speakers for a bit, I do prefer the results
However, the HT sub is for HT and isn't usually connected to the main system plus it doesn't do the reproduction any favours IMO - it just isn't a musical sounding sub... Great for explosions and stuff - even dance music at a push but not anything with texture IYSWIM.
So.. Stereo subs seems like the way to go - I can build them but really wanted any thoughts on the best way to integrate them. I don't want a passive system, partly because I don't want to spend the half a million pounds on the components necessary to build a passive 4th order 80Hz crossover... and partly because I'd like to be able to set the cut off frequency based on how they actually sound in the room without swapping out expensive bits and pieces.
I have a choice of a gainclone, a Kenwood KA 5020 or a 60w @ 8 ohms PA amp to run them unless there is a better solution, I have an unused out channel on the preamp so that's all taken care of.
I guess I need an active low pass filter but don't know what's about - I did look for a 2 driver (L+R) plate amp with built in crossover but they all seem to be for a single driver (summed stereo?)
What's out there in terms of a 24db active low pass that I can use? I don't mind building it from a kit but anything paper based is possibly beyond me TBH. I looked at the ESP site and project 9 seems suitable but it's a bare PCB and I'm not experienced enough to work out all the component values and all that.
Is there a plate amp with built in LPF that'll run L+R subs?
I have an active crossover that used to live in the car which did exactly what I would need to do - is it worth experimenting with that or using a similar type of car sub active LPF?
Any ideas welcome
I get a chance to give my favourite reply twice in a day!
You say you've got pre-out from your amp, but do you have power in?
You really want an active crossover to cut the frequencies to your main speakers. This may also improve their performance by releiving them of low end reproduction.
What are you're main speakers?
I'm about to finalise my crossover design (once I've managed to measure my responses) I can send you my spreadsheet to calc 4th order crossover components. I haven't done the linkwitz transform yet but there is a spreadsheet on ESP site. Can you follow a schematic and layout on strip board ?
I might even volunteer to build you a crossover as I'm doing one anyway (and it gives me a chance to try out 2 different crossover frequencies).
You say you've got pre-out from your amp, but do you have power in?
You really want an active crossover to cut the frequencies to your main speakers. This may also improve their performance by releiving them of low end reproduction.
What are you're main speakers?
I'm about to finalise my crossover design (once I've managed to measure my responses) I can send you my spreadsheet to calc 4th order crossover components. I haven't done the linkwitz transform yet but there is a spreadsheet on ESP site. Can you follow a schematic and layout on strip board ?
I might even volunteer to build you a crossover as I'm doing one anyway (and it gives me a chance to try out 2 different crossover frequencies).
I won't debate on your choice to make stereo subs rather than one good one, but I will say that using gainclones to power them will be no good. In fact probably all of those amp choices aren't really going to cut the mustard for a proper sub.
It would be helpful if you gave details of your main speakers.
As for the filters etc, take a bit of time on the ESP site, it's all there and loads of total beginners have built successful systems from the articles and projects there, and there is a help forum.
Alternatively one of the plate amps from CPC would probably do the whole job.
It would be helpful if you gave details of your main speakers.
As for the filters etc, take a bit of time on the ESP site, it's all there and loads of total beginners have built successful systems from the articles and projects there, and there is a help forum.
Alternatively one of the plate amps from CPC would probably do the whole job.
In your situation I'd go for a cheapy pro amp to drive them, and look for a second hand analogue pro crossover to do the lowpass. Maybe use it to do a high pass on your mains too. Other option is to buy 2 plate amps, 1 for each sub.
Good prices for new pro gear here:
http://www.thomann.de/gruppe-PAAP-3.html?iwid=2&sn=c1f49f6cdb8ecf04c9ad94951c8f4101
Though I've never shopped there.
You're kind of limited for drivers here in the UK. Can look at peerless xls from wilmslow or bk electronics, or try the Lab12 from pro audio parts. Can also look at pro drivers though they don't go as deep as 'home subwoofer' type drivers.
http://member.newsguy.com/~stigerik/almighty/
pro based sub.
If you go the esp route I have a fully assembled and working power supply board (p05) with 'wall wart' power supply for sale.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55497&perpage=10&highlight=&pagenumber=1
cheers,
Rob
Good prices for new pro gear here:
http://www.thomann.de/gruppe-PAAP-3.html?iwid=2&sn=c1f49f6cdb8ecf04c9ad94951c8f4101
Though I've never shopped there.
You're kind of limited for drivers here in the UK. Can look at peerless xls from wilmslow or bk electronics, or try the Lab12 from pro audio parts. Can also look at pro drivers though they don't go as deep as 'home subwoofer' type drivers.
http://member.newsguy.com/~stigerik/almighty/
pro based sub.
If you go the esp route I have a fully assembled and working power supply board (p05) with 'wall wart' power supply for sale.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55497&perpage=10&highlight=&pagenumber=1
cheers,
Rob
Thanks everyone
I do have line level inputs on the amps - I'm not sure what you mean by power in TBH.
The main speaker woofers are Seas L22RNX/P in a 60 litre ported box tuned to 26Hz and while the FR is fairly flat to 26Hz, they aren't really giving me what I'm after. Most music sounds OK but kettle drums can sometimes sound a bit anemic compared to when the sub is used.
I'd be interested to see the spreadsheet, cheers jimbo1968. I may be able to follow the diagram if it isn't too complicated. I have only ever built a PSU from a diagram ...
The ESP site does seem a little daunting to a beginner TBH - I don't want to end up with a load of components I can't put together and the soldering iron stuck in the wall Maybe I should bite the bullet and try one of the projects if there isn't anything more suitable (easier to implement)
I'll have a look at CPC plate amps later.
My HT sub runs from the PA amp ATM and works OK but I did wonder if any of the kit I have would be entirely suitable.
Thanks for the links Rob, I'll have a look at them when I get back from work.
Cheers, murhy3, rumble filter added to the ideas list.
Thanks again
I do have line level inputs on the amps - I'm not sure what you mean by power in TBH.
The main speaker woofers are Seas L22RNX/P in a 60 litre ported box tuned to 26Hz and while the FR is fairly flat to 26Hz, they aren't really giving me what I'm after. Most music sounds OK but kettle drums can sometimes sound a bit anemic compared to when the sub is used.
I'd be interested to see the spreadsheet, cheers jimbo1968. I may be able to follow the diagram if it isn't too complicated. I have only ever built a PSU from a diagram ...
The ESP site does seem a little daunting to a beginner TBH - I don't want to end up with a load of components I can't put together and the soldering iron stuck in the wall
Maybe I should bite the bullet and try one of the projects if there isn't anything more suitable (easier to implement)I'll have a look at CPC plate amps later.
My HT sub runs from the PA amp ATM and works OK but I did wonder if any of the kit I have would be entirely suitable.
Thanks for the links Rob, I'll have a look at them when I get back from work.
Cheers, murhy3, rumble filter added to the ideas list.
Thanks again
quickshift said:Thanks everyone
I do have line level inputs on the amps - I'm not sure what you mean by power in TBH.
The main speaker woofers are Seas L22RNX/P in a 60 litre ported box tuned to 26Hz and while the FR is fairly flat to 26Hz, they aren't really giving me what I'm after. Most music sounds OK but kettle drums can sometimes sound a bit anemic compared to when the sub is used.
I'd be interested to see the spreadsheet, cheers jimbo1968. I may be able to follow the diagram if it isn't too complicated. I have only ever built a PSU from a diagram ...
The ESP site does seem a little daunting to a beginner TBH - I don't want to end up with a load of components I can't put together and the soldering iron stuck in the wall
I'll have a look at CPC plate amps later.
My HT sub runs from the PA amp ATM and works OK but I did wonder if any of the kit I have would be entirely suitable.
Thanks for the links Rob, I'll have a look at them when I get back from work.
Cheers, murhy3, rumble filter added to the ideas list.
Thanks again
If your speakers extend that low (reasnably flat), then you won't need two subwoofers - just a decent high pass filter and good placement (and you'll still have stereo bass - just attenuated). One of the better placements for a mono sub is directly behind the listener's position - requiring a full variable phase adjustments (i.e. not just a switch). Such a placement provides greater tactil sensation.
See what I posted here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=72987
(as Rob has mentioned, you could use two of these for stereo - but again with proper placement and phase adjustment it isn't neccesary)
quickshift said:
you'll have to allow forum emails, as it can't be uploaded in a message.
The equations and method are from the Filter One manual that you will need to read. Find it here:
http://www.delta-audio.com/Active filter one.htm
I have a chance to get a pair of Seas 1209s for about 1/2 price with a bit of luck.
http://www.seas.no/seas_line/woofers/H1209.pdf
Would it be worth using these or would something more "industrial" be appropriate? These would be a good match for the L22s (H1252) I'm already using I guess. I'm not sure how well these perform as pure subs though.
---
I wasn't planning on getting another amp just yet but cheers for the links, there is some sensible looking kit on those pages which isn't too expensive or OTT so have bookmarked the page for when I'm ready for an upgrade.
The link to the almighty sub page is useful too
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If I can't find a suitable active crossover, I'll attempt to build something...
http://www.seas.no/seas_line/woofers/H1209.pdf
Would it be worth using these or would something more "industrial" be appropriate? These would be a good match for the L22s (H1252) I'm already using I guess. I'm not sure how well these perform as pure subs though.
---
I wasn't planning on getting another amp just yet but cheers for the links, there is some sensible looking kit on those pages which isn't too expensive or OTT so have bookmarked the page for when I'm ready for an upgrade.
The link to the almighty sub page is useful too
---
If I can't find a suitable active crossover, I'll attempt to build something...
What's half price? Pair of www.shadowworks.co.uk drivers or XLS10 from www.bkelec.com might be more cost effective, and I would say in the case of the Shadow Works drivers probably better as well.
Half price is circa £100 for a pair so quite a bit less than a pair of XLS10s
The kit at Shadowworks looks like it's getting into death by SPL territory. I do like the fact that the recommended cabs are about 1/3 the volume of the 1209 cabs though!
I have asked them for a price list. Thanks for the recommendation
The kit at Shadowworks looks like it's getting into death by SPL territory
. I do like the fact that the recommended cabs are about 1/3 the volume of the 1209 cabs though!I have asked them for a price list. Thanks for the recommendation
The Shadow Works stuff is good for high SPL, but this is more of a byproduct of the fact that they are over-engineered for quality.
With your main speakers going as low as they do I'm positive a single sub will be fine, both in terms of quality and SPL (with a 12 inch driver such as Shadow Works), which will mean you can spend one one good driver rather than two cheap ones.
Those Seas are a good price that must not be ignored. It depends what your budget is, if you're happy spending more then you may get a better result.
With your main speakers going as low as they do I'm positive a single sub will be fine, both in terms of quality and SPL (with a 12 inch driver such as Shadow Works), which will mean you can spend one one good driver rather than two cheap ones.
Those Seas are a good price that must not be ignored. It depends what your budget is, if you're happy spending more then you may get a better result.
I have attached the FR graphs I did yesterday (and posted into the wrong thread... )
The current sub doesn't do the reproduction any favours - it's crossed at 90 but and the new sub (s) would be crossed lower down so be less likely to mess up imaging. The thing my speakers do really well is accurate imaging so that's a primary consideration. I would have thought that stereo subs would be better for imaging but I expect it's more complicated than that.
Budget is determined by a balance of not wanting to spend shed loads of cash now Vs not wanting to upgrade too soon...
The 1209s are a good price but that isn't necessarily a reason to buy them... If they'll work well it is I guess but don't mind spending more for something better.
I'll wait and see what the SW prices are like.
The servo sub setup in the linked thread looks very interesting too!!!
)The current sub doesn't do the reproduction any favours - it's crossed at 90 but and the new sub (s) would be crossed lower down so be less likely to mess up imaging. The thing my speakers do really well is accurate imaging so that's a primary consideration. I would have thought that stereo subs would be better for imaging but I expect it's more complicated than that.
Budget is determined by a balance of not wanting to spend shed loads of cash now Vs not wanting to upgrade too soon...
The 1209s are a good price but that isn't necessarily a reason to buy them... If they'll work well it is I guess but don't mind spending more for something better.
I'll wait and see what the SW prices are like.
The servo sub setup in the linked thread looks very interesting too!!!
Attachments
Crossing at 90Hz is far too high if your mains go down as low as you claim they do. A single sub will be fine crossed below 60Hz, I'd say higher than 60Hz is possible without too much bother either, but there are other uses that will dispute that.
I can't really make out the scale numbers on the graphs to comment.
I can't really make out the scale numbers on the graphs to comment.
I spoke to Shadowworks who wouldn't tell me prices without going through a consultation process which I'm sure means they have my best interests at heart but it may also mean the drivers are expensive and since I didn't want to spend lots of money, I didn't waste any of their time.
I have their details for if I plan any significant upgrade
So, I knocked up a couple of subs using the wharfedale 12s from my HT sub (it was bare MDF and didn't really warrant finishing)
I'm running them from a 60w PA amp which is fine for their location.
I'm using a variable electronic crossover from a car which is wired into the HF line input from my preamp (bi-amped speakers)
They sound OK actually, fairly warm but the box needs a bit more structural damping - I may cover the boxes with 10mm cork sheet.
I did a design I have used in cars before - a very small box, heavy stuffing and a rear port (tuned to 30Hz). The boxes have 2 angled sides and angled internal bracing.
I still have to make the gaskets which is why there is a small gap round the speaker cutout.
My first go at veneering too
I have their details for if I plan any significant upgrade
So, I knocked up a couple of subs using the wharfedale 12s from my HT sub (it was bare MDF and didn't really warrant finishing)
I'm running them from a 60w PA amp which is fine for their location.
I'm using a variable electronic crossover from a car which is wired into the HF line input from my preamp (bi-amped speakers)
They sound OK actually, fairly warm but the box needs a bit more structural damping - I may cover the boxes with 10mm cork sheet.
I did a design I have used in cars before - a very small box, heavy stuffing and a rear port (tuned to 30Hz). The boxes have 2 angled sides and angled internal bracing.
I still have to make the gaskets which is why there is a small gap round the speaker cutout.
My first go at veneering too
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