Where is Mr. Dan Wiggins when you need him? And by the way, he is one smart s.o.b.
He pretty much laid to rest the myth of woofer speed/transient response vs. woofer size. After reading his technical paper and the "think-tank" battle on car sound & performance forums, i think i'm sold on his Tumult 15d2 driver. A sealed and L/T'd 1200 watt low Q enclosure.
However, there is no place i can go to demo any of the high end sealed subs in the $2K+ range so i guess it all comes down to the various online forums.
I would like to hear from "anyone" who has experienced the sound of the sealed 15" big-boys...ACI maestro, Revel b15, Kleiss s15a, Velodyne, Paradigm, etc.
Anything subjective or objective, listening impressions, performance data...anything!
Finally, a few more questions i'm pondering:
1. The musical differences in a critically damped sub (Q=.5) versus a bessel alignment (Q=.577)
2. The recommended f3 point for a sealed enclosure with a Linkwitz transform as it relates to room
gain in a THX-select environment (1,800 cu. ft.). This room can be fully sealed.
3. The viability of a servo-circuit unit integrated into the sub.
4. The comparative levels of performance between the Tumult and those units mentioned above.
My biggest fear is that this unit will overpower the room, hence the low Q alignment. But how low is the question. I would absolutely prefer a musical signature to this subwoofer, letting sheer displacement take care of HT. I have (3) 8" inch drivers moving the room currently so i don't fully know what to expect from this high end 15" driver. I do know that it models extremely well in winisd pro and Dan has made a very strong case for the XBL^2 topology, not to mention his "observations" on low inductance and transient response, which has put my mind at ease concerning the woofer speed myth.
This guy has really accelerated my learning curve of loudspeakers.
Now if we can just get the drivers released... Thanks to all.
He pretty much laid to rest the myth of woofer speed/transient response vs. woofer size. After reading his technical paper and the "think-tank" battle on car sound & performance forums, i think i'm sold on his Tumult 15d2 driver. A sealed and L/T'd 1200 watt low Q enclosure.
However, there is no place i can go to demo any of the high end sealed subs in the $2K+ range so i guess it all comes down to the various online forums.
I would like to hear from "anyone" who has experienced the sound of the sealed 15" big-boys...ACI maestro, Revel b15, Kleiss s15a, Velodyne, Paradigm, etc.
Anything subjective or objective, listening impressions, performance data...anything!
Finally, a few more questions i'm pondering:
1. The musical differences in a critically damped sub (Q=.5) versus a bessel alignment (Q=.577)
2. The recommended f3 point for a sealed enclosure with a Linkwitz transform as it relates to room
gain in a THX-select environment (1,800 cu. ft.). This room can be fully sealed.
3. The viability of a servo-circuit unit integrated into the sub.
4. The comparative levels of performance between the Tumult and those units mentioned above.
My biggest fear is that this unit will overpower the room, hence the low Q alignment. But how low is the question. I would absolutely prefer a musical signature to this subwoofer, letting sheer displacement take care of HT. I have (3) 8" inch drivers moving the room currently so i don't fully know what to expect from this high end 15" driver. I do know that it models extremely well in winisd pro and Dan has made a very strong case for the XBL^2 topology, not to mention his "observations" on low inductance and transient response, which has put my mind at ease concerning the woofer speed myth.
This guy has really accelerated my learning curve of loudspeakers.
Now if we can just get the drivers released... Thanks to all.
I'll say the new ones are overpriced if you compare to the previous version which sold for $100 less(for a 15d2).
They're pretty clean and go very deep even in a sealed box as you mention.
Problems.... you can bottom it out
My opinion on adire though, you can get a better value and quality product elsewhere
They're pretty clean and go very deep even in a sealed box as you mention.
Problems.... you can bottom it out
My opinion on adire though, you can get a better value and quality product elsewhere
hello and thanks for posting. Did you have to pay shipping on your tumult when you bought it?
There is better value if you're looking for a ported or PR sub. Even the Brahma 15" is a good option but i have'nt seen a more balanced extreme performance driver than the Tumult. If there is one, then it's too late now, this beast is on it's way to my house.
The one word that i keep hearing associated with this driver is low-distortion. This is "the" driver for a sealed L/T application and is the biggest performance upgrade i could hope for in a sealed DIY for $1400. The rocket ufw-12 is $1100-1300.00 shipped and the powerhouses from Revel, ACI, and Kleiss are all over $2200.
I only have 1800 cu. ft. to fill and i worry more about overpowering the room than bottoming the driver. However, you are correct, overexcursion is definitely a worry. I'll probably high pass at 20 Hz (2nd order), LT to 25 Hz and hope for the best. It's the best option for sealed that i have.
Thanks very much for your input.
There is better value if you're looking for a ported or PR sub. Even the Brahma 15" is a good option but i have'nt seen a more balanced extreme performance driver than the Tumult. If there is one, then it's too late now, this beast is on it's way to my house.
The one word that i keep hearing associated with this driver is low-distortion. This is "the" driver for a sealed L/T application and is the biggest performance upgrade i could hope for in a sealed DIY for $1400. The rocket ufw-12 is $1100-1300.00 shipped and the powerhouses from Revel, ACI, and Kleiss are all over $2200.
I only have 1800 cu. ft. to fill and i worry more about overpowering the room than bottoming the driver. However, you are correct, overexcursion is definitely a worry. I'll probably high pass at 20 Hz (2nd order), LT to 25 Hz and hope for the best. It's the best option for sealed that i have.
Thanks very much for your input.
I dont believe I paid any shipping... I know acoustic-visions has always offered free shipping on adire drivers anyways.
A little late to be asking opinions if you already bought it?
Just dont tell me you're buying an ada1200 to go with it. It's a fancy peice of junk.
I wouldnt exactly say it's your best option for a sealed box, but I'd say it's probably the best option for a small sealed box.
A little late to be asking opinions if you already bought it?
Just dont tell me you're buying an ada1200 to go with it. It's a fancy peice of junk.
I wouldnt exactly say it's your best option for a sealed box, but I'd say it's probably the best option for a small sealed box.
Nice competitor to the Tumult now...
http://www.acoustic-visions.com/~acoustic/products/subwoofer_drivers/SSRL-s/
RL-s15 is interesting for LT, 38.5mm Xmax, 1kW power handling and small Vas.
http://www.acoustic-visions.com/~acoustic/products/subwoofer_drivers/SSRL-s/
RL-s15 is interesting for LT, 38.5mm Xmax, 1kW power handling and small Vas.
Wow...lots to comment on in this thread.
First, there is no reason to design a sealed sub that 'will bottom' when using the L/T.
Longer linear throw than a Tumult?
The SS sub mentioned is useless in anything but an IB situation, IMO. It certainly won't outperform a Tumult in a sealed, L/T design with 1200 watts...down low or otherwise.
The ADA1200 'a fancy piece of junk'? Compared to...?
Just wondering, 'exactly' what other drivers offer a better value for a sealed L/T app (for those of us to whom it is not obvious).
A system Q difference of .5 to .577 is very, very hard to discern in the typical 1800 cubes room, IMO. Given that, I would opt for the lower Q every time, as the real world sub you build will never exhibit the precise Q you predict.
In a room that small, I would consider a L/T bypass switch to be able to compare the natural curve of the sub with the L/T'd curve, in-room. I would personally use 9 dB of L/T boost with a 1200 watt amp, and disregard the room size, as that will likely change over the years.
Just ramblings, but having used some 38 drivers from around the world as well as 2X15" Brahma and currently using 2-2X15" Tumults, I have to say that the Tumult is the reigning King in this app.
Bosso
First, there is no reason to design a sealed sub that 'will bottom' when using the L/T.
Longer linear throw than a Tumult?
The SS sub mentioned is useless in anything but an IB situation, IMO. It certainly won't outperform a Tumult in a sealed, L/T design with 1200 watts...down low or otherwise.
The ADA1200 'a fancy piece of junk'? Compared to...?
Just wondering, 'exactly' what other drivers offer a better value for a sealed L/T app (for those of us to whom it is not obvious).
A system Q difference of .5 to .577 is very, very hard to discern in the typical 1800 cubes room, IMO. Given that, I would opt for the lower Q every time, as the real world sub you build will never exhibit the precise Q you predict.
In a room that small, I would consider a L/T bypass switch to be able to compare the natural curve of the sub with the L/T'd curve, in-room. I would personally use 9 dB of L/T boost with a 1200 watt amp, and disregard the room size, as that will likely change over the years.
Just ramblings, but having used some 38 drivers from around the world as well as 2X15" Brahma and currently using 2-2X15" Tumults, I have to say that the Tumult is the reigning King in this app.
Bosso
Bosso, the SS sub will beat a Tumult in a sealed LT box if you give it enough room to breathe. At 6 cu.ft or more it's beating a Tumult with 1200W available because the Tumult ran out of excursion already. (fp = 20 Hz, Qp = 0.707) If you have even more power available, then you could go smaller.
For sure, usually you design an LT to be very small so the Tumult got an advantage with his low Qts, low Fs and higher efficiency.
For sure, usually you design an LT to be very small so the Tumult got an advantage with his low Qts, low Fs and higher efficiency.
simon5 said:
Hi Simon5,
Put the 'new' Tummy in 3 cubes and you'll have Xmax headroom...that means staying well within it's 33mm of one way throw at any frequency using the L/T and 1200 watts. The amp will clip well before you run out of excursion capability, trust me. Designing the L/T for .5 Q (as the OP stated he might prefer) will allow for more amp headroom around 20 Hz with the free lunch of room gain in his small space.
Now, the SS in 6 cubes (grossly too smal, IMO), same amp w/L/T...at what frequency does it best the Tumult sub that we're discussing here?
Just curious.
Bosso
sensitivity, again is the issue with the SS...there is the real problem of power compression, which is more troublesome. Sure it is'nt excursion limited, but it will be working almost twice as hard (power) as the Tumult to win the battle below 20 Hz. From about 25 Hz on up, the Tumult wins out as headroom rises to almost 3 dB from 30-70 Hz. Even running at 1/2 the power of the SS, the Tumult still wins from 30 Hz on up.
The splmaxLF(20 Hz) is 111 dB for the SS and 108 for the Tumult, so theoretically it should best the Tumult below 20 Hz as long there is no compression issues.
One must wonder which motor topology will play cleaner under duress.
I have'nt heard too much about LMT other than the fact it has been around for a while. It is pretty much a known fact that XBL^2 exhibits very clean sound even near it's limits.
The splmaxLF(20 Hz) is 111 dB for the SS and 108 for the Tumult, so theoretically it should best the Tumult below 20 Hz as long there is no compression issues.
One must wonder which motor topology will play cleaner under duress.
I have'nt heard too much about LMT other than the fact it has been around for a while. It is pretty much a known fact that XBL^2 exhibits very clean sound even near it's limits.
a 30 year old gum wrapper
I know because I own one. I believe anyone in their right mind with a similar experience to my own would say the same thing. One thing's for sure, I'll never buy anything from adire ever again. All of their products that I have are soon to be sold and replaced by ANYTHING else
BassAwdyO said:
B'Awd, say it ain't so! You're my hero around here.
I just caught your thread in class d amps. What's the end of the story? Do you still have the ADA? Is it a defective soft start circuit, or does it indeed not come equipped with one?
This is good info, if you don't mind sharing.
BTW, I agree that Adire's rather sudden decision to dump us DIYers because we don't add up to much on their tally tape anymore is abrasive to hear and paying their premiums for hardware that has little follow up service is not cool.
Bosso
BassAwdyO said:
Awdy, it might be in your best interests to simply send the unit back and eat the shipping. While I understand the people posting possible issues from your amp thread, this may not be the case. If it was indicative of the product, I'm sure you would be hearing from others who purchased it, citing the same problem.
If your amp is found to be defective, it would be your chance to say 'keep it' and demand a refund.
Mark
I'm thinking its just another factory defect. Poor quality control. I've heard similar experiences from others with things like unglued spiders. Its just a hassle because the mistake is easily fixed and obviously the fault of the manufacture, but I still have to pay UPS both ways.
But at the same time I'm also thinking that if what kyle at acoustic-visions told me( "I know for a fact that they hand test each of those ADA’s before they ship.") was true, then wouldnt have someone found something wrong with it if indeed something was wrong with it.
Like I said, poor quality control is where my finger's pointing... we'll see where it ends up
But at the same time I'm also thinking that if what kyle at acoustic-visions told me( "I know for a fact that they hand test each of those ADA’s before they ship.") was true, then wouldnt have someone found something wrong with it if indeed something was wrong with it.
Like I said, poor quality control is where my finger's pointing... we'll see where it ends up
I've simulated them with Qp = 0.5 instead of Qp = 0.707 and the SS (6 cu.ft) cannot beat the Tumult (3 cu.ft) at 20 Hz with 1200W of power, it would need more. The Tumult win slightly over the SS. With more power, it could win.
With 1800W for example (driven by a QSC RMX 1850HD) it would slightly win versus the Tumult because the Tumult doesn't have excursion left and the SS still have some left.
I've simulated them with Qp = 0.707 also and the SS (6 cu.ft) can slightly beat the Tumult (3 cu.ft) at 20 Hz with 1200W of power.
With 1800W for example (driven by a QSC RMX 1850HD) it would slightly win versus the Tumult because the Tumult doesn't have excursion left and the SS still have some left.
I've simulated them with Qp = 0.707 also and the SS (6 cu.ft) can slightly beat the Tumult (3 cu.ft) at 20 Hz with 1200W of power.
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