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Old 9th August 2013, 06:10 PM   #11
sine143 is offline sine143  United States
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Join Date: May 2010
out of 500, I'd be keen to try and squeeze 2 of those lab12 horns out of the budget, but it really depends on price per sheet of 3/4

I'd like to submit a bc15 tbw100 loaded Keystone sub as an option as well, little less driver budget than 2 lab 12, little less wood than 2 lab 12s. your amp would not make full use of the powerhandling of the driver, but given your limited hipass capabilites that may be a good thing.
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Old 9th August 2013, 07:22 PM   #12
Zwiller is offline Zwiller  United States
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Thanks gents. I like both ideas. That B&C driver is a beast! I can definitely squeeze 2 lab horns out of the budget but...

I saw a mention in the thread for the PAL12 about a 2kw amp for $300. Not opposed to upgrading the amp for $300 or best bang for buck. Anyone care to offer a suggestion as to an amp?

Is a better strategy to upgrade to a higher power amp with better processing and high power driver/single B&C keystone? That will get me higher SPL and less hauling, right?
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Old 9th August 2013, 08:06 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwiller View Post
Is a better strategy to upgrade to a higher power amp with better processing and high power driver/single B&C keystone? That will get me higher SPL and less hauling, right?
The reason I designed the Keystone was to get more output from the same truck space.
Using the same power (Crest CA-9), and one BC18SW115-4 (bridged mono) compared to 4 Lab 12 (two per side of the amp) in dual ported enclosures, the Keystone outperforms them in every regard.
As a reference, the four dual Lab 12 had more output at 40 Hz than eight dual 18" Meyer HP650.

The price increase of the neo driver now would make me choose the BCTBW100, only slightly less (ultimate) output than the BC18SW115 for a lot less money.

The Lab 12 loaded Pal12 is a nice "bite size" cabinet, but the big gun B&C 18s" are simply way better drivers, and a single 18" Keystone is lighter, easier to build, and 21.5% less truck space (15.52 cubic feet compared to 19.79) than a pair of PAL12.

Art

Last edited by weltersys; 9th August 2013 at 08:17 PM.
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Old 9th August 2013, 09:00 PM   #14
sine143 is offline sine143  United States
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I almost recomended your dual 12 lab 12 design, but it costs the same as the keystone (roughly), unless your a lab12 sourcing wizard (the deals are out there)

while we're roughly on the subject, why does PSS have the wrong picture up for the TBW100?

http://www.prosoundservice.com/m9/BC...subwoofer.html

its a shame they've risen so much in price, probably demand driven.

Last edited by sine143; 9th August 2013 at 09:06 PM.
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Old 9th August 2013, 10:00 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by sine143 View Post
I almost recomended your dual 12 lab 12 design, but it costs the same as the keystone (roughly), unless your a lab12 sourcing wizard (the deals are out there)

while we're roughly on the subject, why does PSS have the wrong picture up for the TBW100?

B&C 18TBW100 18" Subwoofer.
Even at the current BCTBW100-4 price the Keystone would be far cheaper than a pair of the WS 2xLab 12, and also would be a lot lighter and have quite a bit more output above 50 Hz.

You might want to mention to PSS that they have the wrong picture, unless B&C has changed the frame .
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Old 10th August 2013, 12:20 AM   #16
sine143 is offline sine143  United States
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yeah, they definitely have the tbx100 up there (its funny cause scrolling through their catalog you see 2 of the same subs side by side picture wise)
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Old 10th August 2013, 01:06 PM   #17
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Am I the only person who shudders with disgust at the thought of 3 hours of forced exposure to ear-damaging distorted thumping? Of course, despite your taste (and kind of hearing loss you might have from your own earlier exposures), you might be the one DJ in the universe who plays music at non-ear-damaging headache-inducing levels. In which case, my reaction does not apply to you, of course.

Funny, some folks think a DJ, equipment, and helping Beyonce's bank account is somehow superior to hiring a live band who need that kind of support from a happy audience event like a wedding.

Ben
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Last edited by bentoronto; 10th August 2013 at 01:13 PM.
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Old 10th August 2013, 02:30 PM   #18
Zwiller is offline Zwiller  United States
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Great info. Gonna do some in depth reading on the Keystone. I have the CAD and have read the thread several times, most of which is way over my head.

Resisting all temptation to snag a Crown xti2002 at Guitar Center today since I need to go there to get some flatwoods for my annual band reunion and skins for a '47 Leedy I found at an estate sale... I suppose my love affair with low ended started the first time playing a well amplified kit outdoors at a young age.

With great power comes great responsibility. This may sound strange but my ultimate goal as a DJ is to be invisible and just be ambience to the event. It is likely the sub will not pushed until the end of the gig when my daughter takes over and plays what is considered popular music nowadays... Ultimately, this venture is for my sister-in-law and my niece. I just want to be able to deliver the goods when the lights go off and people get down. That reminds me I need to make sure the old par cans fire up!
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Old 10th August 2013, 04:47 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwiller View Post
snip

With great power comes great responsibility. This may sound strange but my ultimate goal as a DJ is to be invisible and just be ambience to the event. It is likely the sub will not pushed until the end of the gig when my daughter takes over and plays what is considered popular music nowadays... Ultimately, this venture is for my sister-in-law and my niece. I just want to be able to deliver the goods when the lights go off and people get down. That reminds me I need to make sure the old par cans fire up!
Thank you for reacting courteously to my emotional outburst. Obviously you ARE a person of good judgment - as might be expected on this forum.

I carry ear plugs when I expect loudness assaults. One of my kids is a loud rock musician and another is a prosperous LA DJ.

Back to sound and coming from a home system of ESLs and a Klipschorn bass, I don't see HiFi solutions to portable/rentable PA bass that fits into a truck with no tail-gate lift. The laws of acoustics being what they are, it seems inevitable that party bass satisfying to a general audience (for want any non-pejorative term) requires producing some thumps in the 45-55 Hz range and not much sound below.

And the recordings enhance the thumping.

Perhaps it is my age, but that kind of old bass-reflex sound is headache-land for me.

Sad but true.
Ben
__________________
Dennesen ESL tweets, Dayton-Wright ESL (110-3200Hz), mixed-bass Klipschorn (28-110), and giant OB using 1960's Stephens woofer (18-110); Behringer DSP. HiFi aspirations since 1956

Last edited by bentoronto; 10th August 2013 at 04:50 PM.
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Old 10th August 2013, 06:19 PM   #20
Zwiller is offline Zwiller  United States
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After a brief review of Art's sketches can I ask some rookie/noob question as the the sequence of the build? Basically a 2 sheet build, right?

1. Each sheets gets ripped to create 22.5" and 25" lengths, then cut sides, top, bottom, back. (Horn parts are cut 90 degrees now and tweaked later?)
2. Measure and layout marks/measurements on both sides of working side of cab. Layout same on other side for nailing/screwing guidance. OR is there some kinda mock up foam board thing for guidance.
3. Build horn - determine angles and tweak bevel of horn sections made from 25" rips
4. Mount bottom panel then horn section
5. Add front, top, back panels
6. Measure angles and add braces. (Any advice I am lost on these)
7. Build keystone panel both sides rounded over keyhole
8. Paint visible interior
9. Drill and mount driver with t-nuts, wire, jacks, etc.
10. Mount side panel
11. Final exterior finish and paint
12. Mount keystone panel with no adhesive and screws for service access


I assume there is some forgiveness in actual construction. Some measurements are to a ten-thousandths of an inch... Leaning on PL glue and shooting 16g nails with the occasional clamp for help lining things up. How far am I off? Thanks!


PS - Ben, if it's too loud, you're too old Yesterday at my daughter's cheer competition the MC system had no low end at all but he pushed the thing and the dang mids made my head resonate... To me, there's good loud and bad loud...
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