Ideas on 35-150(?) HiFi Tapped Horn - Page 2 - diyAudio
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Old 12th February 2011, 01:59 AM   #11
JLH is offline JLH  United States
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This is the model I have for the 10W400. It should work quite well for you. In my other models I was trying to push hard for 35Hz. Tell me if I'm wrong, but you are thinking 40Hz is good enough now?

One thing that may help you with your models is go ahead and use that last conical segment available in Hornresponse. It is an extra tool that can really help shape the response of the horn. Best of luck.
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Last edited by JLH; 12th February 2011 at 02:03 AM.
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Old 12th February 2011, 10:39 AM   #12
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Default 35 or 40 ....

Thanks again JLH.
Yes, I think I've decided to let the 35Hz target slip a little - if it's down 3-4dB but I can push the upper-end peak out a bit further, I think I'd rather go for that . Seems like there's a significant difference in terms of volume and driver size if you really want to reach 35Hz , plus I'm wary of that area above the crossover which is going to take some effort to tame .

Have you any direct experience of the 18 Sound drivers - they look to be well-engineered , hopefully tone should be good as you have found with the B&C ?

I notice in this latest scheme you sent, you've squeezed-down the S1 value a bit - did that give a benefit somewhere ? ( I will go and try now ..) . Yes, I have been trying the extra section for the upper fold , and will play around a bit more with that .

Has anyone found anything ACOUSTIC that can improve that first resonant peak above the operating band ?

I'll post a new sim soon once I've tried the new 10W400 ideas .
Cheers
MJ
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Old 12th February 2011, 03:56 PM   #13
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Thumbs up Job done ?

That's a stunner, JLH - Top work .
Looks like the 10W400 is still the bandwidth king .
This also has the distinct advantage that most/all of the panels should cut from a 4-foot wide sheet .
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Old 12th February 2011, 06:59 PM   #14
bjorno is offline bjorno  Sweden
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Hi,

IME,IMO,An ordinary amp including a 24 dB/octave XO are all what's needed to meet/isolate a Hi-Fi pass-band up to 150 Hz((1/f gldy at XO!) with a stuffed single-folded T-TQWT(The localization(phantom hang-down) issue not triggered at 250 Hz, if used singly) but the single folded (any)TH needs a lot more $/ invested in advance EQ/active filter if ever to integrate Hi-Fi wise without SQ appearing flaws/artifacts.

b
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Old 12th February 2011, 07:11 PM   #15
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Just seen this post from Tom which explains some of what I found playing around with the final horn segment after the 'tap' :
Collaborative Tapped horn project
(Post 189 )

So, Bjorno - are you saying I'm wasting my time ... ?
Is this from bitter experience of trying to get a tapped horn to work in a multi-way system ?
Unfortunately, I don't give up easily , so I may not follow your advice :0)

I remember JLH saying it wasn't a good idea trying to do passive crossovering after the amps, so I will be avoiding that , unless I discover a very good reason .

It's certainly a concern !

Last edited by IslandPink; 12th February 2011 at 07:12 PM. Reason: wrong smilie
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Old 13th February 2011, 02:32 AM   #16
JLH is offline JLH  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IslandPink View Post
Thanks again JLH.
Yes, I think I've decided to let the 35Hz target slip a little - if it's down 3-4dB but I can push the upper-end peak out a bit further, I think I'd rather go for that . Seems like there's a significant difference in terms of volume and driver size if you really want to reach 35Hz , plus I'm wary of that area above the crossover which is going to take some effort to tame .

Have you any direct experience of the 18 Sound drivers - they look to be well-engineered , hopefully tone should be good as you have found with the B&C ?

I notice in this latest scheme you sent, you've squeezed-down the S1 value a bit - did that give a benefit somewhere ? ( I will go and try now ..) . Yes, I have been trying the extra section for the upper fold , and will play around a bit more with that .

Has anyone found anything ACOUSTIC that can improve that first resonant peak above the operating band ?

I'll post a new sim soon once I've tried the new 10W400 ideas .
Cheers
MJ
I've bought two different 18 Sound drivers. One was fine and worked as designed. One had some bad workmanship, so I returned it. In the end, I replaced the 18 Sound (their 6 inch high eff 6") with a Faital 5". My opinion would be that 18 Sound is as good as any other well known manufacturer.

I made S1 smaller to save on volume. S1 doesn't have much impact on the response of the horn.

The only way to get rid of the high frequency peak is to make the mouth big enough that the passband has the same SPL level as the peak. Of course you would have a full size mouth at that point and defeat the whole purpose of a tapped horn.

I found the same thing as William Cowan, that high frequency peak is some 3dB to 5dB lower than what is simulated. A 24dB/Oct electronic crossover takes care of it. With carefull choices, a suppose a 12dB/Oct filter could handle it too.

Do not try a passive crossover with a tapped horn, it doesn't work. Remember how we can add an inductor to change the response of a tapped horn? You can't use passive components ( inductor or caps) with a tapped horn. That's why the passive version of the Danely SH-100B is a bi-amp only model. Only the crossover between the compression driver and the woofer is passive. The tapped horn part has to have its own amp.
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Old 13th February 2011, 05:55 PM   #17
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Thanks JLH , some very relevant info .
I like the comment "..as good as any other well known manufacturer" !
I'm encouraged by the fact that 1st (~160-170) peak is quite narrow, and will hopefully shrink quite a bit in the real world. I will start with high hopes for a 2nd-order low-pass & see how it sounds. There's a lot going on between the two horns in the 90-150Hz area, so I will have to make provision for various options. Right now the amp is likely to be SS for the tapped horn and some kind of 'Melquiades-lite' for the rest ....

I might drop the UK 18Sound dealer an e-mail now, anyway .

Cheers
Mark
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Old 13th February 2011, 07:20 PM   #18
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I can see why the spurious peaks aren't as big in real life - if you have the driver position at eg. 15cm from the throat start , then one edge of the driver is really at about 5cm, the other at ~25cm . If you plot the response for the two cases, it looks like the attachment below. The peaks/dips null-out to some extent .
Nice !
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Old 13th February 2011, 07:49 PM   #19
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Aye, that's a good way of looking at it. Model the two different edges, overlay them...

Might it be wise to leave one side temporarily removable, so you can play with stuffing/lining around the corners? They would probably help getting rid of the peakiness, so you can get away with a 2nd order crossover...
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Old 13th February 2011, 08:58 PM   #20
JLH is offline JLH  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IslandPink View Post
Thanks JLH , some very relevant info .
I like the comment "..as good as any other well known manufacturer" !
I'm encouraged by the fact that 1st (~160-170) peak is quite narrow, and will hopefully shrink quite a bit in the real world. I will start with high hopes for a 2nd-order low-pass & see how it sounds. There's a lot going on between the two horns in the 90-150Hz area, so I will have to make provision for various options. Right now the amp is likely to be SS for the tapped horn and some kind of 'Melquiades-lite' for the rest ....

I might drop the UK 18Sound dealer an e-mail now, anyway .

Cheers
Mark
That sounds like a very reasonable start. So far I've not been able to hear anything wrong with running the low frequency tapped horns with SS amps. You know I'm a hard core tube guy, but a decent quality SS amp works too good to waste a tube amp on it. Good luck and let us hear about your progress.
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