Hi floatfloat said:
Yes, the Hacro (stereo model) was exactly as you have written, but, Greg's gb300d doesn't have that dryness and the detail and control are quite similar (IMHO).
I think that dryness makes the Hacro a little lean in the mid bass and perhaps even upper bass, whereas the gb300d is quite full and involving in those areas.
The Hacro might be a little better in the highs, although I quite enjoy the gb300d's highs. Having said that a little more air would be nice.
I suppose the other aspect to consider is most definitely ... price! No comparision here.
Hi all,
I promised to give some more impressions with SKA:s. So here it is.
I have listened now some 30 hours and SKA:s have been powered on all nights long to quick possible need of the burn in.
Very good thing is that nothing has started to irritate after listening it for a while now. I have sometimes found that some equipment can sound very good first but then you can find something not so good properties in a long run. That seems not to be the case with SKA:s
First, as i said in my first impressions also, SKA plays music and after listening with them for a while, i found it is quite difficult to analyse sound because you very soon forget being analytic and found you listening to music.
I can not say these amps are "musical", because maybe i am not sure what this strange word mean. But i know something about how music sounds in live performance, especially with unamplified instruments. And SKA:s are doing that "live feeling" very well. That is most important thing to me with any equipment. Well recorded unamplified istruments, and music of cource, sounds very natural. And natural is what i love and looking for. What else can there be?
Anyway, some "cold" analysis from sound because i am not familiar to use eloquent musical terms.
I feel SKA:s are dynamic, transparent, not "cold" or "warm", just neutral and very easy to listen. You can use high sound levels if you want without listening fatique.
Treble is very detailed and transparent. I have even found some area of the treble bit harsh. But only bit and only with few (pop)recordings. I cannot point that it is fault of the amplifier, more likely i tend to think that SKA:s only reveal mistakes/compression/limitation made in recordings more than my previous amps. I have not found that thing at all with any of my previous amps what i have used with Orions. Orions treble is not over pronounced at all. Overall treble is very good and suits very well to Orion and my taste. Especially added detail and "air" to upper treble is very velcome.
Good thing is that fine tuning of the treble is very easy adding more or less absorbtive material to first reflections points. Level of the treble can also easily adjusted from active crossover.
Midrange area sounds simply neutral. Nothing is jumping up and i feel this is the most important thing that makes SKA so easy to listen. I do not know if midrange is bit less detailed and transparent than treble area, or is it simply so neutral.
I am using now my 4ch UCD amp with woofers (crossover point 120Hz) , so i cannot say very much what is SKA:s performance in bass area but anyway bass and lower midrange is very tight and dynamic. It will be interesting to try SKA:s also in woofers but i do not plan to build any more amps for now and i doubt that very much improvement is not possible in that area. I think that UCD is superior woofer amp.
I feel that i can now forget to think if i have to build or buy better amps and enjoy listening music instead. (Well, maybe i will update my CD-player but this is totally different story..)
All in all, SKA is very good simple amp design and i cannot resist to recommend to try it if possible. It is very easy to build and adjust and is not expensive.
This is how i feel now. These words are of course only my personal thougts, not general truth in any means.
If i have something to point later, i will write it up.
PS. I have now polypropylene caps installed to RCA inputs and i will take these away. I will report if this change something.
At this point i do not feel there is need to tweak SKA:s but let see if i will try some better electrolytic caps some day. Even Greg has pointed there should not be any need for that.
I will also try to add metal enclosure around transformer and put shield over cable from power supply to module. That is only for fun, There is no any hum or noise. Amps are very silent.
By the way, are there any other Orion owners using SKA:s? It will be very interesting to hear your opinions.
PS2. DIY rules. Only CD player and DAC are commercial
I promised to give some more impressions with SKA:s. So here it is.
I have listened now some 30 hours and SKA:s have been powered on all nights long to quick possible need of the burn in.
Very good thing is that nothing has started to irritate after listening it for a while now. I have sometimes found that some equipment can sound very good first but then you can find something not so good properties in a long run. That seems not to be the case with SKA:s
First, as i said in my first impressions also, SKA plays music and after listening with them for a while, i found it is quite difficult to analyse sound because you very soon forget being analytic and found you listening to music.
I can not say these amps are "musical", because maybe i am not sure what this strange word mean. But i know something about how music sounds in live performance, especially with unamplified instruments. And SKA:s are doing that "live feeling" very well. That is most important thing to me with any equipment. Well recorded unamplified istruments, and music of cource, sounds very natural. And natural is what i love and looking for. What else can there be?
Anyway, some "cold" analysis from sound because i am not familiar to use eloquent musical terms.
I feel SKA:s are dynamic, transparent, not "cold" or "warm", just neutral and very easy to listen. You can use high sound levels if you want without listening fatique.
Treble is very detailed and transparent. I have even found some area of the treble bit harsh. But only bit and only with few (pop)recordings. I cannot point that it is fault of the amplifier, more likely i tend to think that SKA:s only reveal mistakes/compression/limitation made in recordings more than my previous amps. I have not found that thing at all with any of my previous amps what i have used with Orions. Orions treble is not over pronounced at all. Overall treble is very good and suits very well to Orion and my taste. Especially added detail and "air" to upper treble is very velcome.
Good thing is that fine tuning of the treble is very easy adding more or less absorbtive material to first reflections points. Level of the treble can also easily adjusted from active crossover.
Midrange area sounds simply neutral. Nothing is jumping up and i feel this is the most important thing that makes SKA so easy to listen. I do not know if midrange is bit less detailed and transparent than treble area, or is it simply so neutral.
I am using now my 4ch UCD amp with woofers (crossover point 120Hz) , so i cannot say very much what is SKA:s performance in bass area but anyway bass and lower midrange is very tight and dynamic. It will be interesting to try SKA:s also in woofers but i do not plan to build any more amps for now and i doubt that very much improvement is not possible in that area. I think that UCD is superior woofer amp.
I feel that i can now forget to think if i have to build or buy better amps and enjoy listening music instead. (Well, maybe i will update my CD-player but this is totally different story..)
All in all, SKA is very good simple amp design and i cannot resist to recommend to try it if possible. It is very easy to build and adjust and is not expensive.
This is how i feel now. These words are of course only my personal thougts, not general truth in any means.
If i have something to point later, i will write it up.
PS. I have now polypropylene caps installed to RCA inputs and i will take these away. I will report if this change something.
At this point i do not feel there is need to tweak SKA:s but let see if i will try some better electrolytic caps some day. Even Greg has pointed there should not be any need for that.
I will also try to add metal enclosure around transformer and put shield over cable from power supply to module. That is only for fun, There is no any hum or noise. Amps are very silent.
By the way, are there any other Orion owners using SKA:s? It will be very interesting to hear your opinions.
PS2. DIY rules. Only CD player and DAC are commercial
Attachments
No one know what that word means because it's a typical "weazle word" that writers use when they either have nothing to say or they're being disengenuous (i.e. they really think an amp they're reviewing sux, but it's also from a major advertiser).
Don't worry, you explained what you actually heard, and that's really what we want to see anyway.
SKA listening Review pic
Hi Pasi P,
I was intrigued by your thumb nail pic. Can you describe what is in the boxes. Are the two middle ones 2 boxes or 4? Are they divided some way left and right? How is your SKA laid out in the box? Did you build in one box or monoblocks? From pic with side heatsinks, middle 2 look like two stereo amps. Both SKA's???
Thanks
Hi Pasi P,
I was intrigued by your thumb nail pic. Can you describe what is in the boxes. Are the two middle ones 2 boxes or 4? Are they divided some way left and right? How is your SKA laid out in the box? Did you build in one box or monoblocks? From pic with side heatsinks, middle 2 look like two stereo amps. Both SKA's???
Thanks
Re: SKA listening Review pic
Hi hifryer,
Yes, SKA:s are 4 monoblocks in the middle.
(4ch UCD is the lowest and Orion active crossover+6ch DACT stepped attenuator is uppest.)
http://www.diyhifi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=12798#12798
http://www.diyhifi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=12799#12799
hifryer said:
Hi hifryer,
Yes, SKA:s are 4 monoblocks in the middle.
(4ch UCD is the lowest and Orion active crossover+6ch DACT stepped attenuator is uppest.)
http://www.diyhifi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=12798#12798
http://www.diyhifi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=12799#12799
traderbam said:You'll know it when you hear it.
Well maybe..
But is the live performance musical?
Can Musicality of the audio equipment be something above real thing?
If not, i have heard top-end Musicality hundreds of times
PS.
Sorry but i feel that this "Musicality" is something too cultivated and complicated area for me. I am a simply man
I prefer to listen live performance and something that is quite near to that from audio equipments. Simply, isnt it
Hi,
Instal dual RCA inputs.
DC input goes straight to R2 side of C1.
Ac input goes to R1 side of C1.
Then, just swap input plug between sockets for comparison.
The DC input will suit running sub-bass amps/drivers and the AC input for all other upper frequency duties.
BTW. you have fitted R1 before C1.
Can I suggest an alternative?
Instal dual RCA inputs.
DC input goes straight to R2 side of C1.
Ac input goes to R1 side of C1.
Then, just swap input plug between sockets for comparison.
The DC input will suit running sub-bass amps/drivers and the AC input for all other upper frequency duties.
BTW. you have fitted R1 before C1.
Hi Pasi,
you have all your amps located together.
Have you considered putting the amps right next to the respective speakers?
I think short speaker cables are one of the biggest improvements to sound quality available to monoblock users, and just to start an argument, passive bi-amping using separate cables to each driver are next highest on my list. I may find that active speakers are higher yet but my experiments here are on the back burner.
I even went as far as locating my passive crossovers on the back of the amplifier terminals and then ran short cables into the speaker drivers with no further jointing (soldered at crossover and driver terminals).
you have all your amps located together.
Have you considered putting the amps right next to the respective speakers?
I think short speaker cables are one of the biggest improvements to sound quality available to monoblock users, and just to start an argument, passive bi-amping using separate cables to each driver are next highest on my list. I may find that active speakers are higher yet but my experiments here are on the back burner.
I even went as far as locating my passive crossovers on the back of the amplifier terminals and then ran short cables into the speaker drivers with no further jointing (soldered at crossover and driver terminals).
Hi Andrew T,
Thanks for the tips.
Maybe i was bit unclear.
So, my SKA:s are now DC-coupled (C9 shorted). Also DC-block cap C1 is shorted and "moved" to RCA input because quality polypropylene is too big to fit PCB.
I will remove DC-block cap totally because i think that risk that Orion active crossover give DC out should be quite minimal.
About placing amps near speakers. Maybe it is not very good idea in my case because i use (6ch) passive attenuator between active crossover and amp. Thus RCA cable lenght should be keep minimum. Am i right?
If i will some day build some kind of buffer, that will be interesting to investigate though.
Thanks for the tips.
Maybe i was bit unclear.
So, my SKA:s are now DC-coupled (C9 shorted). Also DC-block cap C1 is shorted and "moved" to RCA input because quality polypropylene is too big to fit PCB.
I will remove DC-block cap totally because i think that risk that Orion active crossover give DC out should be quite minimal.
About placing amps near speakers. Maybe it is not very good idea in my case because i use (6ch) passive attenuator between active crossover and amp. Thus RCA cable lenght should be keep minimum. Am i right?
If i will some day build some kind of buffer, that will be interesting to investigate though.
Hi Pasi,
remote location of C1 does not stop you fitting dual RCAs.
Have you fitted R1 at the RCA? since C1 is off board.
Does your crossover have DC block on it's outputs? Quite minimal is not good enough!
Is your crossover digital or analogue?
If analogue, you could put the attenuators (two channel) in front of the crossover. If digital, (same as Behringer DCX arrange) then two three channel attenuators (switched) at the amps still allows the short speaker cable philosophy.
remote location of C1 does not stop you fitting dual RCAs.
Have you fitted R1 at the RCA? since C1 is off board.
Does your crossover have DC block on it's outputs? Quite minimal is not good enough!
Is your crossover digital or analogue?
If analogue, you could put the attenuators (two channel) in front of the crossover. If digital, (same as Behringer DCX arrange) then two three channel attenuators (switched) at the amps still allows the short speaker cable philosophy.
Hi Andrew T,
R1 is not fitted. Crossover is analogue 3-way.
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/images/graphics/asp-blocks.gif
I want use attenuator after crossover to minimize noise from crossover, that is not a broblem thoug.
Crossover has DC-block only at woofer output so do you think it is too risky if amps do not have any DC-block? Anyway DC from crossover is normally well below 30mV.
R1 is not fitted. Crossover is analogue 3-way.
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/images/graphics/asp-blocks.gif
I want use attenuator after crossover to minimize noise from crossover, that is not a broblem thoug.
Crossover has DC-block only at woofer output so do you think it is too risky if amps do not have any DC-block? Anyway DC from crossover is normally well below 30mV.
Hi Pasi,
with active speakers your drivers are at risk if DC gets into the power amps.
I would fit a DC block on every amplifier OR source (crossover).
If you follow the advice of Sparticus then the DC gain changes from 1 to 28. It is imperative that you fit a DC block if C9 is shorted.
I would also consider adding DC detect at the speaker terminals with isolation relays for each speaker output, particularly if you convert to DC amplification. For active speakers this is probably a "nice to have" option to allow delay muting at power switch on until the amps/sources settle down to stable conditions.
All this is irrelvant if you can afford to change your damaged drivers each time something misbehaves.
Noise from the crossover should not be an issue for +29db gain amps. If your LR is that noisy with attenuators before the crossover I would suggest that you should be looking for a better design. There is one exception; very highly sensitive speakers. A combination of amp gain and speaker sensitivity of more than 125db may become noisy on low level signals and 130db will become obtrusive during quieter passages. Your combination are likely to be 119db (+29db & 90db/2.8V).
with active speakers your drivers are at risk if DC gets into the power amps.
I would fit a DC block on every amplifier OR source (crossover).
If you follow the advice of Sparticus then the DC gain changes from 1 to 28. It is imperative that you fit a DC block if C9 is shorted.
I would also consider adding DC detect at the speaker terminals with isolation relays for each speaker output, particularly if you convert to DC amplification. For active speakers this is probably a "nice to have" option to allow delay muting at power switch on until the amps/sources settle down to stable conditions.
All this is irrelvant if you can afford to change your damaged drivers each time something misbehaves.
Noise from the crossover should not be an issue for +29db gain amps. If your LR is that noisy with attenuators before the crossover I would suggest that you should be looking for a better design. There is one exception; very highly sensitive speakers. A combination of amp gain and speaker sensitivity of more than 125db may become noisy on low level signals and 130db will become obtrusive during quieter passages. Your combination are likely to be 119db (+29db & 90db/2.8V).
SKA's listening impressions
Hi Pasi P,
very nice job done! Clean casings.
I, myself, also are enjoying my 300D (with SMPS) every day and must say, I am with your (sonic) impressions. Easy listening, be it at low or high levels. No fatigue at all.
Presently I am assembling a 2ch 150D version for a friend (two monoblocks in one casing), but with the double PSU in a separate casing. I am not very fond of high pulsed 100Hz currents close to the amps. I am eager to listen to the "little brother" of the 300D.
My 300D's have a large MKP cap at the RCA inputs. Will also make tests with a DC-servo, to remove both caps at input and feddback point. Then, when the home-built preamp will be ready, only one singular cap will be in series with the signal path. All the rest DC-coupled and freed from DC drifts by the DC-servo amp.
kleep it up!javascript:smilie('')
Big Grin
stoeffle.
Hi Pasi P,
very nice job done! Clean casings.
I, myself, also are enjoying my 300D (with SMPS) every day and must say, I am with your (sonic) impressions. Easy listening, be it at low or high levels. No fatigue at all.
Presently I am assembling a 2ch 150D version for a friend (two monoblocks in one casing), but with the double PSU in a separate casing. I am not very fond of high pulsed 100Hz currents close to the amps. I am eager to listen to the "little brother" of the 300D.
My 300D's have a large MKP cap at the RCA inputs. Will also make tests with a DC-servo, to remove both caps at input and feddback point. Then, when the home-built preamp will be ready, only one singular cap will be in series with the signal path. All the rest DC-coupled and freed from DC drifts by the DC-servo amp.
kleep it up!javascript:smilie('
')Big Grin
stoeffle.
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