oh yes, and also, i wonder if 'scope makers should be told of those special resistors with 'extra smooth high freq responce'. I also tryed putting a magnet on my resistor tester, you know what diffrence that makes, NONE.
So if a strong magnet doesn't make any diffrence, how can stray magnetism have any effect? it doesn't
So if a strong magnet doesn't make any diffrence, how can stray magnetism have any effect? it doesn't
Helix,
It's simple, really...if you can't hear a difference, or if your system isn't of sufficient resolution to let you hear a difference, then don't buy the parts. Think of all the money you'll save.
In the meantime, there's no need to be rude. People here are well aware of Self (& Slone) and their views. If they agree, great. If they don't, any many here--myself included--have learned the hard way that measurements aren't as all-inclusive as one might wish, then telling people to visit Self's website isn't likely to result in a 'reality check.'
More likely laughter.
Grey
It's simple, really...if you can't hear a difference, or if your system isn't of sufficient resolution to let you hear a difference, then don't buy the parts. Think of all the money you'll save.
In the meantime, there's no need to be rude. People here are well aware of Self (& Slone) and their views. If they agree, great. If they don't, any many here--myself included--have learned the hard way that measurements aren't as all-inclusive as one might wish, then telling people to visit Self's website isn't likely to result in a 'reality check.'
More likely laughter.
Grey
okokok
obviously THD is not the only measurement that sums up a amp.
I know, i'm sorry for having a stress but, what i was thinking was perhaps instead of worrying about the 'sound' of resistors, we should be trying to encourage playing with new technologies such as homebrew class D amps and 96bit DACS.
Otherwise i might have to go into experiment with diffrent makes of copper clad board, see if they have a diffrent sound. Perhaps the photo resist or etching agents leaves a tiny tiny residue on the board thus producing whooly lows and unsmooth highs!
Maybe i should try increaseing the level of nitrogen in my lisnting room ever so slighty to get a better 'sound' from my ears!
OR maybe NOT
obviously THD is not the only measurement that sums up a amp.
I know, i'm sorry for having a stress but, what i was thinking was perhaps instead of worrying about the 'sound' of resistors, we should be trying to encourage playing with new technologies such as homebrew class D amps and 96bit DACS.
Otherwise i might have to go into experiment with diffrent makes of copper clad board, see if they have a diffrent sound. Perhaps the photo resist or etching agents leaves a tiny tiny residue on the board thus producing whooly lows and unsmooth highs!
Maybe i should try increaseing the level of nitrogen in my lisnting room ever so slighty to get a better 'sound' from my ears!
OR maybe NOT
I have to deal with people like you at work every day.We engineering types call you office types 'bean counters'.You have no understanding of how things work.Circuit board is very important.I use Rogers Duroid, a ceramic loaded Teflon board.The dielectric constant of the board is very important.Class D amps have been around for 50 years.They are not new.Sinclair sold one in kit form 30 years ago.Lancaster has one in his 30 year old C-MOS Cookbook.The mere fact that you think there is a 96 bit DAC tells me something.To get 24 bit out of a DAC would take liquid nitrogen.24 bit = 145.7dB! When you get ready to graduate from high school send $4 to the Audio Engineering Society.In return they will send you a list of schools that have courses in audio.Come back in four years.
Helix,
As GRollins mentioned, there is absolutely no need for you to be rude to anybody for that matter and particularly to the members of this forum who mainly are DIYers and Audiophiles of the highest order as may exist. Some of them are so well informed as well as experienced that most of us need to have the humility to acknowledge this fact and learn from them.
As already pointed out, may be your system-chain is not resolving enough for you to notice the differences. And by the way is there any speciality centre in your vicinity where you can get your hearing checked and measured. I don't intend to be mean, but some of us (my audiophile friends here, that is) have done this in order to recognise each of our own weaknesses and rely in those areas where others are better. Such a co-operative effort only makes the field of audio to progress.
Also do not take lightly what has been pointed out about circuit board material. I have some PCB material around here, (very cheap) that sounds awful and I have discovered that when the tracks are very close, the board is actually acting as a (bad) conductor. There is a difference between a bad conductor and and insulator! Agreed, that this is an extreme case in point, but we are encountering such phenomena at different points of a continuum; we know what the two extremes are, but the variations within the continuum is what we are discovering and discussing.
Finally, to remember that music is an "electro-mechanical shock wave" and not merely an electrical signal might help to be a little more patient and not to take conclusive leaps in the dark.
As GRollins mentioned, there is absolutely no need for you to be rude to anybody for that matter and particularly to the members of this forum who mainly are DIYers and Audiophiles of the highest order as may exist. Some of them are so well informed as well as experienced that most of us need to have the humility to acknowledge this fact and learn from them.
As already pointed out, may be your system-chain is not resolving enough for you to notice the differences. And by the way is there any speciality centre in your vicinity where you can get your hearing checked and measured. I don't intend to be mean, but some of us (my audiophile friends here, that is) have done this in order to recognise each of our own weaknesses and rely in those areas where others are better. Such a co-operative effort only makes the field of audio to progress.
Also do not take lightly what has been pointed out about circuit board material. I have some PCB material around here, (very cheap) that sounds awful and I have discovered that when the tracks are very close, the board is actually acting as a (bad) conductor. There is a difference between a bad conductor and and insulator! Agreed, that this is an extreme case in point, but we are encountering such phenomena at different points of a continuum; we know what the two extremes are, but the variations within the continuum is what we are discovering and discussing.
Finally, to remember that music is an "electro-mechanical shock wave" and not merely an electrical signal might help to be a little more patient and not to take conclusive leaps in the dark.
You shouldn't have to "learn to like" any amp.
Anyway tube amps do measure better then solid state amps in some respects (linearity etc)
To get back to the point, what i meant was :
I would use normal 1% good quality metal films in most parts and critical res's (such as feedback if that applys to your amp) could have the higher 0.5% or better tol, beacause of their higher stability (15ppm or better).
Some people say there is a carbon 'sound'. this may be due to inductance in wirewound models or somesuch. I personally would avoid carbon, because they DO drift with amp temp, and this can't be a good thing.
I would strongly suggest, IMHO to fit good quality NON inductive in the very low value emitter resistors, such as MP915 or eqiv, (these are ok up to 500MHZ (should almost do for ausio use ))
All are avaliable at RS, and more
Anyway tube amps do measure better then solid state amps in some respects (linearity etc)
To get back to the point, what i meant was :
I would use normal 1% good quality metal films in most parts and critical res's (such as feedback if that applys to your amp) could have the higher 0.5% or better tol, beacause of their higher stability (15ppm or better).
Some people say there is a carbon 'sound'. this may be due to inductance in wirewound models or somesuch. I personally would avoid carbon, because they DO drift with amp temp, and this can't be a good thing.
I would strongly suggest, IMHO to fit good quality NON inductive in the very low value emitter resistors, such as MP915 or eqiv, (these are ok up to 500MHZ (should almost do for ausio use ))
All are avaliable at RS, and more
Don't mean to get anyone riled up. Just poking fun at the whole subjective vs. objective thing. I just meant if I blew a big wad of money on an amp, I may be a wee bit biased in its favor. If I spent $20 on a resistor, I'd favor it too.
Thanks for the update, Grey, I didn't know you could get down to 1% with tube amps these days. Surprised transformers are that linear.
Thanks for the update, Grey, I didn't know you could get down to 1% with tube amps these days. Surprised transformers are that linear.
Resistors
In repying to 'ping's question. I will say that everyone has their own preference. Unfortunately I havn't had the time (and money) to experiment with Holco, Vishay, etc brands of resistors.
I would like to ask though, in generic metal film resistors - how much difference can they sound? I can understand how carbon vs metal films have different properties, thus will sound different. But I personally don't think spending 100 times the cost for Vishays is well money spent for most people.
In Vancouver (Canada) there's this electronic place where i've been buying most of my resistors from. They sell 100 qty packs of 1% tol. 1/4w metal films for only $1.50 cdn. These are Made in Taiwan resistors and I wouldn't be surprised if other brands like BC Component get their resistors made in Taiwan also.
I would recommend buying the 100 packs and HAND MATCH the RESISTORS yourself. People need not to worry much about 1% or 1/2% tollerance resistors when you can hand match them yourself.
Look for my next project "4 channel Balance Line Stage Pre-amp" to match my SoZ on my website.
In repying to 'ping's question. I will say that everyone has their own preference. Unfortunately I havn't had the time (and money) to experiment with Holco, Vishay, etc brands of resistors.
I would like to ask though, in generic metal film resistors - how much difference can they sound? I can understand how carbon vs metal films have different properties, thus will sound different. But I personally don't think spending 100 times the cost for Vishays is well money spent for most people.
In Vancouver (Canada) there's this electronic place where i've been buying most of my resistors from. They sell 100 qty packs of 1% tol. 1/4w metal films for only $1.50 cdn. These are Made in Taiwan resistors and I wouldn't be surprised if other brands like BC Component get their resistors made in Taiwan also.
I would recommend buying the 100 packs and HAND MATCH the RESISTORS yourself. People need not to worry much about 1% or 1/2% tollerance resistors when you can hand match them yourself.
Look for my next project "4 channel Balance Line Stage Pre-amp" to match my SoZ on my website.
Where's this place in Vancouver? I get up there once a year
if I'm lucky and I'd like to check out any stores that sell
new or surplus electronic components.
Choices aren't as good around Seattle as they used to be, but there are few places: Radar (downtown Seattle near the Space Needle), Supertronics (south, near SouthCenter Mall), Active Electronics (Northrup Way in Bellevue) and Electronic Dimensions in Tacoma.
if I'm lucky and I'd like to check out any stores that sell
new or surplus electronic components.
Choices aren't as good around Seattle as they used to be, but there are few places: Radar (downtown Seattle near the Space Needle), Supertronics (south, near SouthCenter Mall), Active Electronics (Northrup Way in Bellevue) and Electronic Dimensions in Tacoma.
Address in Vancouver
The address is :
Lee's Electronics
4522 Main Street
Most of the prices are far cheaper than Digikey or any other online parts site. Remember there's the 14% sales tax in BC.
The shop caters to DIY. I've bought all my Solen caps from them also at much cheaper prices than online.
The address is :
Lee's Electronics
4522 Main Street
Most of the prices are far cheaper than Digikey or any other online parts site. Remember there's the 14% sales tax in BC.
The shop caters to DIY. I've bought all my Solen caps from them also at much cheaper prices than online.
Yes! Lee's RULES!!!!
I only wish I still lived in Vancouver... never have I come across such a great DIY audio parts store, and with fantastic prices to boot!
I'll have to visit again sometime... and good advice for anyone planning a trip to Vancouver - you must go check this little store. They're small, but full of goodies!
Just some of the item's I've found great deals on there:
- Solen caps and inductors
- Really nice rack-mount project enclosures for dirt cheap
- machined aluminum volume knobs
- ALPS Black beauty pots ($32 CAD each!!!), also the blue ones
- lots of nice connectors, esp. their RCA jacks and speaker binding posts, also very cheap
- plenty of other odds'n sods
Cheers,
I only wish I still lived in Vancouver... never have I come across such a great DIY audio parts store, and with fantastic prices to boot!
I'll have to visit again sometime... and good advice for anyone planning a trip to Vancouver - you must go check this little store. They're small, but full of goodies!
Just some of the item's I've found great deals on there:
- Solen caps and inductors
- Really nice rack-mount project enclosures for dirt cheap
- machined aluminum volume knobs
- ALPS Black beauty pots ($32 CAD each!!!), also the blue ones
- lots of nice connectors, esp. their RCA jacks and speaker binding posts, also very cheap
- plenty of other odds'n sods
Cheers,
AS
As part of the design of our new preamplifier we will be doing subjective tests of the following:
Caddock MK-132
Caddock TF-020R
Vishay S102
..and several other S102 alike metal foil resistors.
We were thinking of initial testing involving simply putting the same value resistors between cd player and amp and listenting for differences.
I am definitely interested in hearing whether the Vishays at 11.50 ea. (from Percy, cheaper from elsewhere), are better than the $5.95 Caddocks (from Percy, lowest price I've seen).
We will be using B&Ws 802 which are extremely revealing..
-- Aaron
As part of the design of our new preamplifier we will be doing subjective tests of the following:
Caddock MK-132
Caddock TF-020R
Vishay S102
..and several other S102 alike metal foil resistors.
We were thinking of initial testing involving simply putting the same value resistors between cd player and amp and listenting for differences.
I am definitely interested in hearing whether the Vishays at 11.50 ea. (from Percy, cheaper from elsewhere), are better than the $5.95 Caddocks (from Percy, lowest price I've seen).
We will be using B&Ws 802 which are extremely revealing..
-- Aaron
The Field Guide for Resistor Watchers
Put on your shorts and get out your binoculars, boys and girls, and get ready to enjoy the sounds of natural reproduction. The grey bellied Caddock's song is noticable for it's neutral tonal balance and good detail and is popular resistor for natural sound without budget breaking cost. The usual suspects from left to right are: Digikey 1% 1/4 watt, Resista, Corning RN60D, Holco, Caddock MK 132, Vishay S102, and Dale 25W wirewound (great in speaker crossovers.) Maybe this resistor stuff is not for the birds after all.
H.H
Put on your shorts and get out your binoculars, boys and girls, and get ready to enjoy the sounds of natural reproduction. The grey bellied Caddock's song is noticable for it's neutral tonal balance and good detail and is popular resistor for natural sound without budget breaking cost. The usual suspects from left to right are: Digikey 1% 1/4 watt, Resista, Corning RN60D, Holco, Caddock MK 132, Vishay S102, and Dale 25W wirewound (great in speaker crossovers.) Maybe this resistor stuff is not for the birds after all.
H.H
Attachments
Let's see... what little I know about resistors is that they have the following properties in addition to (or violation of) Ohm's law:
Inductance, which is generally higher in wirewounds of course.
Capacitance, both in parallel with their two terminals and to the mounting environment.
Excess noise above and beyond Johnson (thermal) noise - bulk metal and WW should be best for this, with metal film close behind.
Temperature coefficient - although I have a hard time imagining how this could be audible.
Voltage coefficient - a non-linear effect in which the effective resistance changes with the applied voltage.
Of these, I could easily imagine inductance, capacitance, and voltage coefficient having audible effects on an audio signal. Excess noise is generally just 1/f noise, and with reasonable care in selecting parts and values, I don't see why this should be a concern.
Can someone please enlighten me as to what other properties of real-world resistors might have an effect on their sound?
Inductance, which is generally higher in wirewounds of course.
Capacitance, both in parallel with their two terminals and to the mounting environment.
Excess noise above and beyond Johnson (thermal) noise - bulk metal and WW should be best for this, with metal film close behind.
Temperature coefficient - although I have a hard time imagining how this could be audible.
Voltage coefficient - a non-linear effect in which the effective resistance changes with the applied voltage.
Of these, I could easily imagine inductance, capacitance, and voltage coefficient having audible effects on an audio signal. Excess noise is generally just 1/f noise, and with reasonable care in selecting parts and values, I don't see why this should be a concern.
Can someone please enlighten me as to what other properties of real-world resistors might have an effect on their sound?
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