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Old 11th February 2012, 08:41 AM   #1
Kei is offline Kei  Wales
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Default Quad 909 Clone

Original source is here, just to make it clear that these are not my designs. Since i don't speak bulgarian, i can't ask anything about the design so its far easier to post it here. Quite fancy building this design as i've always fancied a quad. (did look at the 405 designs too) I am not certain whether I can substitute the 2SA1837 toshiba parts out for something like sanken 2SA1859A. It also suggests using ZTX552 for T5 which i can't find and ZTX752 for T6 which i've substituted for ZTX753. Are the MJL21194 main outputs the best or is there a better part. (the parts list i have differs from the parts on the schematic)

Last of all, the power supply design that i was intending to use was a 2x 50V 625VA toroid with 2 rectifiers filtered by 4 22,000uF caps. I noticed that the original 909 psu has some additional components and the +/- rails are offset. (+57.8V and -53.4V)

Schematic. I also have the Eagle design files with both schematic & pcb.
Click the image to open in full size.

PCB
Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 11th February 2012, 09:06 AM   #2
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all is a about sonic signature

repairing an average of 400 amps per year from time to time i have been listening many opinions from many "experts" .

costumer of mine trashed a mimesis 9 Goldmund and replaced it with an ESP P3A ... what can you tell about that ? ( costumer is a university professor of physics has deep knowledge of sound at the age of 55 is what we call a sophisticated listener and obviously with a sophisticated set up )

If the electric setup is proper amplifier will work and produce sound ... now if the sonic signature will "fit" your ears is a different question.
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Old 11th February 2012, 09:26 AM   #3
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Well I do speak bulgarian

Also I'm a member of this forum. They suggest replacing the ZTX parts with MPSA93 but is not that critical any device with close properties and enough sustaining voltage will fit here.
You can replace the 2SA1837 with MJE15031 or something different with similar characteristics. Overall selection of devices in this schematic is made according that what they can have and it is not absolutely critical. 2SA1859A should work fine I think.

In the forum have also a thread about Quad520 and they say that the slower MJL21194 performed better than the faster 2sc5200 but in this case I don't know.

If you have more questions ask here and I will ask in the bulgarian forum.

Last edited by astankov; 11th February 2012 at 09:33 AM.
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Old 11th February 2012, 09:38 AM   #4
Kei is offline Kei  Wales
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Thank you astankov much appreciated. Main question is about the power supply. (as i've not seen anyone listing any specifications for it) I've not bought anything yet as i want to make sure i get everything right first. The original design doesn't appear to have been cloned (R36-R39 and T15/16 are missing) Does this mean that the board is designed to run off an ordinary unregulated supply. The design i had drawn up was akin to this on the tnt audio site:

PSU4
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Old 11th February 2012, 09:56 AM   #5
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They claim that they using it with unregulated supply +/-50V. Also say that using the virtual ground makes sound worse since they tried it with Quad520 but they didn't tried it with this one. Just noticed because never read this tread - in the first post they say that changed the value of L2 to be able to work with faster devices like 2sc5200 otherwise amplifier is oscillating. So outputs need to be faster devices 2sc5200 or any modern fast power BJT.
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Old 11th February 2012, 04:28 PM   #6
kimon is offline kimon  Greece
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Could someone explain,please,the rather unusual implementation of the quasi-complementary output stage?
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Old 11th February 2012, 04:35 PM   #7
PB2 is offline PB2  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kei View Post
Original source is here, just to make it clear that these are not my designs. Since i don't speak bulgarian, i can't ask anything about the design so its far easier to post it here. Quite fancy building this design as i've always fancied a quad. (did look at the 405 designs too) I am not certain whether I can substitute the 2SA1837 toshiba parts out for something like sanken 2SA1859A. It also suggests using ZTX552 for T5 which i can't find and ZTX752 for T6 which i've substituted for ZTX753. Are the MJL21194 main outputs the best or is there a better part. (the parts list i have differs from the parts on the schematic)

Last of all, the power supply design that i was intending to use was a 2x 50V 625VA toroid with 2 rectifiers filtered by 4 22,000uF caps. I noticed that the original 909 psu has some additional components and the +/- rails are offset. (+57.8V and -53.4V)

Schematic. I also have the Eagle design files with both schematic & pcb.
Click the image to open in full size.
Is the schematic that you posted from the other site or did you redraw it?

Do you know if it is exactly as the real Quad is build, or did they substitute better/different transistors and such?

If you have any other documentation that would help also.

Here is the Quad 405 Service Manual it is quite similar and might answer some of your questions.
http://www.keith-snook.info/Schemati...ice%20Data.pdf

I would guess that the higher V+ supply is needed because T5-T6-T7 have a high combined Vce
saturation voltage so the higher V+ voltage is needed to provide symetrical clipping. They could
have just had higher voltage to the drivers but then the outputs would go deeper into saturation
and they become very slow under such conditions - better for both to get the higher supply V.
The bootstrap on the negative side provides drive that is higher than the supply voltage so the
lower part of the output stage does not have the same problem.
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Last edited by PB2; 11th February 2012 at 04:53 PM.
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Old 11th February 2012, 04:57 PM   #8
Kei is offline Kei  Wales
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Here are the BJT's i was looking at. (from other amp projects)

Sanken 2SC3263 (TO-3P)
ON Semi MJL3281AG (TO-264)

I have the service manual for both the 606 and the 909. I also have the original pcb layout for the 606 board M12910 issue 3, which uses 6 TO-3P devices. (i could post these if the board allows it)

The design in the OP is not completely identical to the original but extremely similar. The original has 6 large transistors vs the 4 in this design.
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Old 11th February 2012, 05:01 PM   #9
PB2 is offline PB2  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kimon View Post
Could someone explain,please,the rather unusual implementation of the quasi-complementary output stage?

The simplest way to look at this is that it has a very high current class A VAS with a bias of about 50mA (-53V/1.12K). The bias is so high in this "VAS" that it is able to drive the top transistor directly (I'm not sure if it was a wise choice to leave out a driver transistor but there have been many revisions of the amp and none have had one) and also the output load through R29 and R30. When the drop across these resistors becomes large the output transistor turns on and acts as a current booster. The output stage is really a simple class B output stage with the addition of conceptually complex feedforward compensation to drive the distortion close to zero.

There are several papers providing analysis of the feedforward compensation with particular emphasis on the Quad design linked at the bottom of this page:
http://quad405.com/

Here is an AES paper on the subject:
http://quad405.com/jaes.pdf
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Last edited by PB2; 11th February 2012 at 05:13 PM.
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Old 11th February 2012, 05:05 PM   #10
PB2 is offline PB2  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kei View Post
Here are the BJT's i was looking at. (from other amp projects)

Sanken 2SC3263 (TO-3P)
ON Semi MJL3281AG (TO-264)

I have the service manual for both the 606 and the 909. I also have the original pcb layout for the 606 board M12910 issue 3, which uses 6 TO-3P devices. (i could post these if the board allows it)

The design in the OP is not completely identical to the original but extremely similar. The original has 6 large transistors vs the 4 in this design.
I'd like to know what all the original semiconductor types were if it is not too much trouble.
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