Hello,
The French people did spend a lot of time developping this thing. Of course many people wonder why did choose this expensive caps in the power supply. Especially in Holland there were quiet a few people not willing to do an investment in 4 of these 330000 uf caps and a 500 va transformer. And of course their regulated power supply build with surplus parts would perform much better because they did decided before they will never going to buy an expensive power supply.
This a kind of amp that cannot be build from scratch. It will need some serious investment. Both time and money. Greetings, Eduard
The French people did spend a lot of time developping this thing. Of course many people wonder why did choose this expensive caps in the power supply. Especially in Holland there were quiet a few people not willing to do an investment in 4 of these 330000 uf caps and a 500 va transformer. And of course their regulated power supply build with surplus parts would perform much better because they did decided before they will never going to buy an expensive power supply.
This a kind of amp that cannot be build from scratch. It will need some serious investment. Both time and money. Greetings, Eduard
HI
My answer to that I put together 1F capacitor each side and I was still not satisfied with the sound .
After I used capacitance multiplier power supply , that not regulated power supply !
The sound much better than ever before .
These for me not money issue , it is fact .
But until you don't take the time to try you believe you did well enough and you have the best .
I spent two years to develop these amp .
Regards
My answer to that I put together 1F capacitor each side and I was still not satisfied with the sound .
After I used capacitance multiplier power supply , that not regulated power supply !
The sound much better than ever before .
These for me not money issue , it is fact .
But until you don't take the time to try you believe you did well enough and you have the best .
I spent two years to develop these amp .
Regards
Hello,
There have been loads of people who did try to make things better. If yours sounds better than the original you should be a lucky man. Did you use the 330000uf Cef caps supplied by the shop in Paris to create that 1F ? Outside France i didn't meet a lot of people who did do that. Maybe you should get connected to Jean Hiraga. One of my friends in France will surely have his telephone number or e-mail. Greetings, Eduard
There have been loads of people who did try to make things better. If yours sounds better than the original you should be a lucky man. Did you use the 330000uf Cef caps supplied by the shop in Paris to create that 1F ? Outside France i didn't meet a lot of people who did do that. Maybe you should get connected to Jean Hiraga. One of my friends in France will surely have his telephone number or e-mail. Greetings, Eduard
I refer to this original schematic, posted by gaborbela from Canada:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=1580452&stamp=1218173925
how important is the supply quality for this amp?
how good or less good is PSRR (power supply rejection ratio)?
Notes:
1. this symmetrical amplifier uses global Current Feedback.
This means feedback goes vis resistor from output to emitters of input transistor. I usually call this Emitter Feedback.
2. the input is a Diamond Buffer stage. This diamond is biased via resistors. From same supply as Power Output stage
Not via two CCS (constant current sources) which would give higher PSRR, and isolation from the Output Modulation currents.
The 1k1 resistors + 22uF caps filter in supply line try to improve this a bit.
===============================================
Lineup conclusion
This amplifier is very much dependent of a good clean supply.
A supply free from (or very low) ripple and voltage level variation.
Power Supply Rejection Ratio is low.
And the use of Current Feedback is one factor why Power Supply must be very good!
This is typical for Current Feedback amplifiers.
PSRR. This is so low I would even recommend regulated power supply. For example by using LM338 or other powerful IC regulators.
I understand that some will use capacitance multiplier power supply from ESP site. This is more low cost and maybe just as good as buying a lot of very Big & Expensive Elyt Capacitors.
The more power output you make with this amplifier, the better supply you need.
For 1-2 Watt Output into 8 Ohm you may perhaps get away with a more 'normal' supply.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=1580452&stamp=1218173925
how important is the supply quality for this amp?
how good or less good is PSRR (power supply rejection ratio)?
Notes:
1. this symmetrical amplifier uses global Current Feedback.
This means feedback goes vis resistor from output to emitters of input transistor. I usually call this Emitter Feedback.
2. the input is a Diamond Buffer stage. This diamond is biased via resistors. From same supply as Power Output stage
Not via two CCS (constant current sources) which would give higher PSRR, and isolation from the Output Modulation currents.
The 1k1 resistors + 22uF caps filter in supply line try to improve this a bit.
===============================================
Lineup conclusion This amplifier is very much dependent of a good clean supply.
A supply free from (or very low) ripple and voltage level variation.
Power Supply Rejection Ratio is low.
And the use of Current Feedback is one factor why Power Supply must be very good!
This is typical for Current Feedback amplifiers.
PSRR. This is so low I would even recommend regulated power supply. For example by using LM338 or other powerful IC regulators.
I understand that some will use capacitance multiplier power supply from ESP site. This is more low cost and maybe just as good as buying a lot of very Big & Expensive Elyt Capacitors.
The more power output you make with this amplifier, the better supply you need.
For 1-2 Watt Output into 8 Ohm you may perhaps get away with a more 'normal' supply.
panomaniac
either we can make 'the perfect supply'
or we can use some tricks to improve PSRR a bit
... or maybe one tiny bit of both ..
this amplifier is very good
once it can get the working conditions + supporting environment
that it needs
1. overdimensioned supply is one way suggested
this will keep the Hiraga circuit close to original idea
2. a re-work using the main Hiraga idea,
but with some CCS, constant current sources,
and maybe even separate supply for input/output
and/or using IC-regulated power supply is another way to go
either we can make 'the perfect supply'
or we can use some tricks to improve PSRR a bit
... or maybe one tiny bit of both ..
this amplifier is very good
once it can get the working conditions + supporting environment
that it needs
1. overdimensioned supply is one way suggested
this will keep the Hiraga circuit close to original idea
2. a re-work using the main Hiraga idea,
but with some CCS, constant current sources,
and maybe even separate supply for input/output
and/or using IC-regulated power supply is another way to go
Hello,
The French did do an awfull lot of test on power supplies regulated and non-regulated. With car batteries. Do a search on le prepre ( mc amplifier by Jean Hiraga ). Keep in mind that Hiraga is connected to a lot of Japanese who did do a lot of cost no object reasearch .
AND we don't want Daniel down under to realise that he did decide to use the wrong power supply for his amp after all that drlling, sanding and painting. We are all waiting for him to tell his experiences with his new born baby, aren't we? Greetings, eduard
The French did do an awfull lot of test on power supplies regulated and non-regulated. With car batteries. Do a search on le prepre ( mc amplifier by Jean Hiraga ). Keep in mind that Hiraga is connected to a lot of Japanese who did do a lot of cost no object reasearch .
AND we don't want Daniel down under to realise that he did decide to use the wrong power supply for his amp after all that drlling, sanding and painting. We are all waiting for him to tell his experiences with his new born baby, aren't we? Greetings, eduard
HI Salas
Please do not buy any secret from me jut take your time test a dozen power transistor and a dozen driver ,so take your time .
I have no secret to sell it to you , especially not a Chinese secret .
That is why I do not want to share because some people do not appreciate another people effort .
These is not a secret , just there are people not planing to build these amp they just like to mix the .... around .
Then years before I built my first Hiraga after the UK site schematic but it was terrible .
After I found another schematic which is way better so from that I tried any trick to do some improvement .
Why should I share to everyone especially who not planing to build these amp .
About the caps it may be better than the regular let say Mepco or Philips capacitor but I do not believe that make such a big improvement .
Just a waste of money $$$ .
A couple weeks now I built a French amp using Caddock resistors what a waste of money .
Whit one good Russian PIO capacitor I did more improvement than $100 value Caddock resistors .
Regards
Please do not buy any secret from me jut take your time test a dozen power transistor and a dozen driver ,so take your time .
I have no secret to sell it to you , especially not a Chinese secret .
That is why I do not want to share because some people do not appreciate another people effort .
These is not a secret , just there are people not planing to build these amp they just like to mix the .... around .
Then years before I built my first Hiraga after the UK site schematic but it was terrible .
After I found another schematic which is way better so from that I tried any trick to do some improvement .
Why should I share to everyone especially who not planing to build these amp .
About the caps it may be better than the regular let say Mepco or Philips capacitor but I do not believe that make such a big improvement .
Just a waste of money $$$ .
A couple weeks now I built a French amp using Caddock resistors what a waste of money .
Whit one good Russian PIO capacitor I did more improvement than $100 value Caddock resistors .
Regards
HI Eduard
I do not use regular surplus parts not even a resistors .
Before you write please ask .
If you think your expensive capacitor will do the trick so be happy .
One more time capacitance multiplier power supply not regulated power supply .
Please tried firs and after comment or may be just read about it on the ESP site .
Do not forget no longer available real Toshiba power transistors , the factory stop manufacturing many years back .
So the Toshiba what you think is Japanese is really a fake .
You can read more from expert at the ESP site from Rode . Or from Mike who designed the Symasym amp .
I built at least 30-40 amps until now so I have some(little) experience .
Even now I working on amps like Aleph X , Zenquito , Grand Mos , so on .
Regards
I do not use regular surplus parts not even a resistors .
Before you write please ask .
If you think your expensive capacitor will do the trick so be happy .
One more time capacitance multiplier power supply not regulated power supply .
Please tried firs and after comment or may be just read about it on the ESP site .
Do not forget no longer available real Toshiba power transistors , the factory stop manufacturing many years back .
So the Toshiba what you think is Japanese is really a fake .
You can read more from expert at the ESP site from Rode . Or from Mike who designed the Symasym amp .
I built at least 30-40 amps until now so I have some(little) experience .
Even now I working on amps like Aleph X , Zenquito , Grand Mos , so on .
Regards
eduard said:
eduard,
If the power supply has to be of type: Cost No Object / No Matter!!!
.. then it tells me something .. and makes me wonder ..
Let's see what Daniel will say, when he is ready to listen to amplifier.
He is not one beginner.
He has built many power amplifiers, before.
Will be very interesting ... see what he will tell .. about End Result.
Regards Lineup
Lineup: thanks for the comments, I cant wait to hear it, i am working on it today....
I agree on the PSRR issue which i why i have more than a Farad.
I may after measurement use regulation before the large cap bank for the best of both worlds. it helped with my little "monstre"
Gaborbela: my email is danw1million@hotmail.com
i am using 22V zeners + i am interested to see your findings.
Eduard: i will get it working and then little mods like resistors and inductors etc I will try one at a time and find the improvements
something i am also interested to try.
I agree on the PSRR issue which i why i have more than a Farad.
I may after measurement use regulation before the large cap bank for the best of both worlds. it helped with my little "monstre"
Gaborbela: my email is danw1million@hotmail.com
i am using 22V zeners + i am interested to see your findings.
Eduard: i will get it working and then little mods like resistors and inductors etc I will try one at a time and find the improvements
something i am also interested to try.
Hello Daniel,
I think the looks are okay. But the red coloured caps did look a little better.
This amp is very sensitive to the parts being used. Not at least the parts used in the power supply. I think i did tell you before that Hiraga is busy building a new power supply for '' le monstre''.. Maybe a capacitance multiplier?
In general the reports about the hiraga amps are positive. The people owning one should be the positive music lovers.
Daniel make one change every time should be the way to go. Mine did have the chokes from the first because i did ask the people in Paris if i could use the choke that was developped for another solid state design in the 30 watt as well. 25 years later you can see people start using them to supply the heaters of 300b, 2a3 with cleaner voltage.
Now i will get bsy with a test set up for a new to built power supply for a drd amp ( also using chokes, even better a choke input) Greetings, Eduard P.s Daniel maybe i will have some 1k8 Allen Bradley . Anyway the ones i did use were not 0.5 watt like the Shinko tantal ones supplied by the shop in Paris.
I think the looks are okay. But the red coloured caps did look a little better.
This amp is very sensitive to the parts being used. Not at least the parts used in the power supply. I think i did tell you before that Hiraga is busy building a new power supply for '' le monstre''.. Maybe a capacitance multiplier?
In general the reports about the hiraga amps are positive. The people owning one should be the positive music lovers.
Daniel make one change every time should be the way to go. Mine did have the chokes from the first because i did ask the people in Paris if i could use the choke that was developped for another solid state design in the 30 watt as well. 25 years later you can see people start using them to supply the heaters of 300b, 2a3 with cleaner voltage.
Now i will get bsy with a test set up for a new to built power supply for a drd amp ( also using chokes, even better a choke input) Greetings, Eduard P.s Daniel maybe i will have some 1k8 Allen Bradley . Anyway the ones i did use were not 0.5 watt like the Shinko tantal ones supplied by the shop in Paris.
check out this post of mine, in Pass Labs:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1563088#post1563088
here we can talk big air coil inductor!
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1563088#post1563088
here we can talk big air coil inductor!
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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