Why battle with Chinese board manufacturers?

[Bigun]

I suspect that selling pcb's is an unattractive business for people like Nelson, Hugh and Carlos The Destroyer etc. because the profits from selling bare pcb's are negligible and not worth the effort of processing orders and mailing boards out to people. Unfortunately, allowing others to produce pcb's of their designs for sale carries the risk of having people bring their good reputations into dispute when 3rd party products prove to be problematic or defective.

Perhaps one way around this is to have 'certified licensed' boards produced by Chinese vendors using gerber files that have been given the thumbs up by the original author. Again, I doubt that there's a financial interest from the author's standpoint so the board vendors wouldn't be looking at license fees. Having a 'certified licensed' board design for sale might actually be a good selling point and would encourage some of the chinese board vendors to get approved. Most of the authors of the DIY designs we admire seem to be in favour of as many people building them as possible and so may be prepared to help make it easier for folks to obtain price competitive pcb's in this way.

IP protection is problematic - it costs money to patent and even more to police and defend. A pcb layout on the other hand is protected for free through Copyright.

 

[SY]

You can try to rationalize theft away because it's cheap and convenient for you, but it's still theft. Patent is irrelevant in this case, trademark and trade dress violation is not. If I use Nelson's trademark and name, which he has invested decades and much money to create their value, to sell merchandise without his approval, I'm stealing from him.

 

[a.wayne]

IP is a Western concept, an abstraction. Its not lack of respect, rather lack of understanding. I'm a westerner and I don't understand it either.

Western concept .. pleaseeee.. they know what they are doing....

You can try to rationalize theft away because it's cheap and convenient for you, but it's still theft. Patent is irrelevant in this case, trademark and trade dress violation is not. If I use Nelson's trademark and name, which he has invested decades and much money to create their value, to sell merchandise without his approval, I'm stealing from him.

+10

 

[abraxalito]

Western concept .. pleaseeee..

So no reasoned argument then?

they know what they are doing....

Sure they do. What do you think they know?

 

[corkpuller]

[QUOTE
Sure they do. What do you think they know?[/QUOTE]

what they know is:
A: there are laws that protect the stolen IP in the country they are shipping the products too. These laws also exist in China.

B: they have an advantage with significantly cheaper manufacturing and avoidance of liscensing fees.

C: They know that IP laws are not enforced in China and that their theft will not be prosecuted.

There are many instances of moral relativism, many of them tinged with jingoism - this is not one of them.

 

[abraxalito]

Two out of three there. Room for improvement.

 

[Johno]

Getting back to Boscoe's proposition..

Great idea. I would love it if boards were made available of the designs shared on this site, which sort of makes them public domain anyway.

I note that a couple of Pass designs are available now via the forum Store already. I just don't see the distinction between the forum store, my
plagiarised Eagle version of a board (that I get made by Silver Circuits in Malaysia now) or an eBay seller from China.

Getting hot under collar because some enterprising guy is making a couple of Yuan could really be seen as sour grapes.

 

[infinia]

Taiwan used to be just as bad in the 60's and 70's, I think they have seen the light now esp since they are building (investing) in their own "brand names". IMO some cultural behaviors stem from living in a very populous society with limited resources, so they have to be aggressive to survive by taking advantage of "the angles". as a result some lines get crossed and blurred but at least one has have lived another day.

 

[abraxalito]

Getting hot under collar because some enterprising guy is making a couple of Yuan could really be seen as sour grapes.

Indeed. The gents do protest overmuch.

 

[unclejed613]

so if abraxalito works long hours and late nights for years on an amp design, then uploads a copy of the schematic and board layouts to DIYaudio for comment, does that mean i can just go to the local PCB fab, have 100,000 boards made and sell kits on ebay and call them the AbraX-1? without paying abraxalito a dime? no, it doesn't it's HIS design. nobody likes to put in long hours working on a project and not get SOMETHING out of it if it succeeds. that's why we have patent law and IP protection.

on the other hand, i don't like the idea of "brainstorm" patents where the patent holder sees a new piece of technology and patents ALL possible future uses of it, even if those uses aren't practical at the time. i'm talking about Bell Labs, when the LED was invented, they gathered a bunch of engineers together and had them think up ALL possible future uses for an LED whether it was practical at the time or not, and patented them in a blanket patent. then years later, when LEDs began being made in quantity with good enough performance to make some of the theoretical uses practical, and an experimenter would publish an idea they had, if it was even close to the theoretical brainstorm patents, Bell's lawyers landed on them like a pack of 800lb gorillas. where would we be today if TI had a blanket brainstorm patent for ALL possible future uses of microprocessors and sent an army of untamed lawyers after anybody who built a microcomputer kit in the 70's and 80's? these messages we're typing in cyberspace would still be on paper.

so, do certain people and companies abuse patent law? you betcha. should some company in china make tons of money off of Nelson Pass' designs and him never see a dime of it?... NO! he worked long hours to perfect it, it's HIS! patent law was made to protect the experimenter, the tinkerer, and the inventor from having their work and ideas, and their long hours of work stolen.

 

[abraxalito]

so if abraxalito works long hours and late nights for years on an amp design, then uploads a copy of the schematic and board layouts to DIYaudio for comment, does that mean i can just go to the local PCB fab, have 100,000 boards made and sell kits on ebay and call them the AbraX-1?

Yep, there's already a design on my blog. Go to it.

without paying abraxalito a dime? no, it doesn't it's HIS design. nobody likes to put in long hours working on a project and not get SOMETHING out of it if it succeeds. that's why we have patent law and IP protection.

You're totally welcome to make all kinds of stuff up. Its great entertainment

 

[a.wayne]

So no reasoned argument then?



Sure they do. What do you think they know?

Funny guy .......

 

[ostripper]

Good discussion.

Yes , I have seen just about all the most popular projects here pop up on ebay. I also see the original intent of the project vulgarized. Maybe some are outright thefts of someones hard work as a DIYer , but (hopefully)the market will respond to the errors , lack of good documentation , cheap components , and general "underhandedness" of the product.

Recently ,I saw a thread here " chinese DX amp .. help! " or something along those lines. A perfect example - Carlos did not reply to that thread . The Boards are good !!! The kits are so cheap , even if you throw away the parts - they are a deal. Stuff them with mouser/digikey devices and you have something.

I'm about to do the board thing and would be lucid if it showed up on fleabay, I would most likely make a case out of it (even ebay has rules). Besides that ,you could even buy a few of the sellers cheaper products and write some really negative reviews ... that would force the "hand" as far as ebay's rules of engagement are concerned (I done this to get what I want).

OS

 

[abraxalito]

Good discussion.

Yeah, it is.

Recently ,I saw a thread here " chinese DX amp .. help! " or something along those lines. A perfect example - Carlos did not reply to that thread . The Boards are good !!! The kits are so cheap , even if you throw away the parts - they are a deal. Stuff them with mouser/digikey devices and you have something.

No reason Carlos should give support away for free. Perhaps he messaged those guys privately to offer his services You get what you pay for.

I'm about to do the board thing and would be lucid if it showed up on fleabay, I would most likely make a case out of it (even ebay has rules).

Well I'm curious to know why you'd be livid. With my designs if someone were to copy, that's attention. Attention is what all aspiring young artists crave. Its what separates the famous from all the rest. When you've got attention there's practically no way you can avoid making money. Piles of it. So attention is what I value, more than money.

 

[Ian Finch]

Do small-time DIYs really care if there is IP gift, theft or exploitation? DIY is a grand pastime based squarely on all 3 activities. Run your eye down the threads in the Forum; Not a lot of respect for IP or service organization confidentiality is there?
Sure, these will also be $$$$ concerns for manufacturing corporations to ensure their ideas don't get leaked to competitors and thus affect their business but the matter for designers who choose to donate, or rather display their talents to the public is quite another matter IMHO.

Let's cut the hypocrisy from this argument; having your name associated with the design and product is the only actual profit and proves sufficient for many here.
Designers/Manufacturers here have already stated their approach - they don't post ideas that they don't want others to use. Simple and logical enough, surely.

 

[ostripper]

Well I'm curious to know why you'd be livid.

OK , BECAUSE ... they would most likely be selling a whole kit w/ parts far cheaper than what I would just sell a set of boards for. On top of that , there is NO WAY I can compete with workers 20 to room working 70 hours/wk with suicide nets outside the windows getting paid with room, board, and food. (apple ipod manufacturing).

And .. #2 , if the product was substandard , it would be associated with the original. Some would even ask for support if the product was similar (the DX example). Many other valid reasons to be dissatisfied with theft.

OS

 

[abraxalito]

OK , BECAUSE ... they would most likely be selling a whole kit w/ parts far cheaper than what I would just sell a set of boards for.

That's feedback from the market. Its telling you in no uncertain terms your fixed costs are too high. Get your operation to a lower cost environment if you want to thrive.

On top of that , there is NO WAY I can compete with workers 20 to room working 70 hours/wk with suicide nets outside the windows getting paid with room, board, and food. (apple ipod manufacturing).

You're still thinking old paradigm business. Read Schumpeter (even though he wrote in 1942, he's bang up to date) - you can find a sample of his writing on my blog. The basic insight you've missed is - there is no 'competition' because in a true competition the rules are fixed beforehand. In business you 'win' (if win be the right word when there's not any competition) not by winning the game but by changing the game. If you don't believe me look at how Google has cleaned up in so many markets. They haven't won, rather they changed the rules.

So to go back to your original point - yes, if you play the same game as them, then there's no doubt you will lose. They are adapted for that game, you are not. But you are adapted for another game - you have to play that one and not theirs.

And .. #2 , if the product was substandard , it would be associated with the original.

Not by astute customers it won't be. Do you want customers so you can patronise them or do you prefer they patronise you?

Some would even ask for support if the product was similar (the DX example).

Just say 'no'. Is it that hard?

 

[Hiten]

I mean no offence to anyone but here are my views and would be happy to change them if someone explains.

Broadly speaking...
~ moving manufacturing to a few countries and making it cheap creates problems for local manufacturers.
~ by discouraging local manufactures one is not encouraging aspiring designers to create new designs or creating any environment for research and development. he/she will have to live with limited market Which would force him/her to sell at higher price because they will be competing against low priced copied product.
~ What is right or wrong being a subjective question, onus is on person who copies a design.
~ If a person copies a design and is making money, Why the original designer himself can not make money by licencing.
~ For a well labored design imitation is not a form of flattery. Because a person who copies a design has enough time to survey the market to see the popularity of a design then he copies it. So clearly intent is to make money not appreciation.
~ Customer Support is a company's approach towards its customer of how they want them to see their company.
A small incidence is.. I live in a small town near Mumbai, A British Co. had built a bridge over a creek nearly 100 years back. Though we have built a new bridge alongside it, few years back The co. sent a letter to Civic authorities that Bridge has surpassed its normal life and maintenance should be done to use it. People here have nothing but praise for that Co.

But I think times have changed and only time will tell if globalisation is good or not.
regards

 

[karmik]

Hi A few things are addressed in this thread, all of them are good points but..

• IP is a very dodgy concept. I'm not a sound engineer or a circuit designer by any stretch of the imagination, but i post everything i do on my blog for the world to see, use and replicate. I give out detailed sketches of enclosures, Eagle files of schematics and parts list. The same can be said for hundred of thousands of software developers publishing their code with open source licenses. That business model involves dealing with a smaller group of high profile paying customers that are willing to cough up the bucks for quality support because they run a business *themselves*.
  
  
• I used to be an IT consultant in the early 2000s and the best move i made was stop serving private individuals and devoting my time 100% to business customers. Information and work are not the same thing. Information can (and in my opinion should) be free, work cannot. By giving out information *about* your work, you're not handing out the work itself. Schematics, Technical sketches etc. are information. Anyone with a serious commitment to their work or interest would contact Nelson Pass for the expertise and experience that come along with it.
  
  
• You're also forgetting that many PCBs on eBay are implementations of reference designs found in datasheets. I recently bought a PCM2704 USB Dac for 15 dollars shipping included and the circuit is *exactly* identical to the datasheet suggested one. I believe those schematics fall under some kind of fair-use policy? I'm not in the semiconductor business or in electronic enginering but it seems unlikely to me that every time a new company wants to use an IC in their design they have to *license* it from the manufacturer? Do i really have to write (and possibly pay) to Texas Instruments every time i create an output stage around an OPA2134 and sell it?
  
  
• I can't afford first-world prices for electronic equipment so i build myself everytime i can and buy chinese whenever i cannot. Saying no to that would mean giving up on a *great* learning experience. It would mean being poorer in the most important meaning of the word. This new digital world requires a shift of perspective. You can't make a buck every time someone sneezes near a product designed by you. In my opinion a better way would be to "change the game" as abraxalito suggested, by crushing the competition with quality, accessibility and support.
  
  
• It means that if i pay 600 euros for a piece of equipment, i expect to be able to call the manufacturer and have them follow me step-by-step in finding out what's wrong with my unit. This doesn't change the fact that if something is illegal, it's illegal. But that requires a common legal environment, which in the case of the chinese ripoffs is not there. If the issue is moral, then i believe it's a moot point.

My 2c.

 

[abraxalito]

I'll just pick up a couple of your points to pontificate on.

~ If a person copies a design and is making money, Why the original designer himself can not make money by licencing.

In this situation they certainly can approach the copier. Not kicking off with 'you stole my design!' but rather 'did you realise there are some points about my design which are going to affect customer satisfaction?'. Then wait to see if the manufacturer responds. The idea is for the manufacturer and designer to reach some kind of win-win so both benefit from the interaction. If both have customers' interests at heart rather than merely profit, they'll achieve something special. Perhaps the manufacturer will agree to paying some money in exchange for design support? Remember the manufacturer is going to have some returns due to customer misuse or just misunderstanding. Having the designer on-hand will be a considerable bonus.

~ For a well labored design imitation is not a form of flattery. Because a person who copies a design has enough time to survey the market to see the popularity of a design then he copies it. So clearly intent is to make money not appreciation.

I disagree - it is indeed flattery. One famous remark from Picasso (who few would say was motivated primarily by money) was 'Good artists copy, great ones steal'.

But I think times have changed and only time will tell if globalisation is good or not.

Its a process - like any process has its good and bad points. So yes, its wise to wait and see.