Chinese sellers on ebay do not do it for any reason other than to make money. They will take a DIY design, make boards and sell them for £3-5 a go but it costs them pennies to have them made. Often they are also selling on counterfeit or sub standard components along with them. This is what I object to.
Teenagers who think music is free, well... that is a matter of upbringing, and in response to that we have DRM.
Teenagers who think music is free, well... that is a matter of upbringing, and in response to that we have DRM.
I live in China, and I'm also mad at the counterfeit parts... But I think this is not the topic, AT ALL ! Plus there are sellers from around the world selling those parts... Truth is they're likely made in China because that's where the factories for electronic stuff are located
Well what's the problem if they are competitive in making these boards
And what's the problem with wanting to make a profit from their pcb making activity..? (you'd want them to sell it at cost don't you !?
. ) This is the raison d'etre of any firm in the world !! You wouldn't complain about sports shoes makers making 80 to 90% gross margin on shoes with air in them... They're not selling the PCBs anymore expensive than if you or I would have asked them to make the PCB from an Eagle file, so it's not like they were making money selling / licensing the design or stealing the patent's rights
Fred
It's directly relevant. More and more would-be DIYers are being burnt time after time by this behaviour.
Well what's the problem if they are competitive in making these boards
And what's the problem with wanting to make a profit from their pcb making activity..? (you'd want them to sell it at cost don't you !?
Because it is NOT THIER PROPERTY to be making profit from!!
This post was right on point and I'm surprised no-one responded to it. The answer is, both are fine.
When I post a project or publish it in a magazine, I am putting the design out there for anyone to use. I may try to put some meaningless disclaimer ("This design may not be used or reproduced for commercial use"), but anyone can build it or sell it or sell parts for it if I didn't already have a patent application on it. That's what "public domain" means. There is no protection for it, I'm aware there's no protection for it, and if it's a good design, I shouldn't be surprised if someone uses it. Whether or not it's a better idea for a hobbyist to buy from a cheap vendor of unknown quality than from an author-sanctioned source is a different question.
Copying commercial designs and using the name, trademark, and reputation of the commercial design to sell knockoffs is a different matter entirely.
You don't understand...They' re etching and making the PCB's don't they ?? Those miserable 5 £ are there for the added value of making the PCB... (and covering part of the investment and labor)
So if I give them an eagle file of a Passdesign published on diyaudio, you're basically saying that they should not charge me because the design is not their property ???
I think we' re on a meaningless and irrelevant debate here.. Accusing a guy who probably makes 2£ of profit per pcb and causing IMHO not the slightest prejudice to anyone in the majority of cases because Nelson and other Hifi companies do not compete on the market of PCBs... ! !
There are much more important things to rant about in this world...
So if I give them an eagle file of a Passdesign published on diyaudio, you're basically saying that they should not charge me because the design is not their property ???
I think we' re on a meaningless and irrelevant debate here.. Accusing a guy who probably makes 2£ of profit per pcb and causing IMHO not the slightest prejudice to anyone in the majority of cases because Nelson and other Hifi companies do not compete on the market of PCBs... ! !
There are much more important things to rant about in this world...
Reality check...
1- The "law" does not protect the "inventor"...
"NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- Patent reform cleared another major hurdle on Thursday, when the House of Representatives voted overwhelmingly to approve a bill that would fundamentally change the way the government treats intellectual property.
...
At the core of both bills is a transition of the U.S. patent law from a "first to invent" to a "first to file" system. That would give the patent to the first applicant, rather than the first inventor. It's the standard most of the rest of the world uses, since it prevents inventors from coming out of the woodwork and and laying claim to a patent."
2- When you buy a "knockoff" from China, other people benefit much more ...
Eamonn Fingleton Makes a $10,000 Offer - James Fallows - International - The Atlantic (take a look at the graph)
When you buy that shanzai phone, most of the money goes to those companies who invented the chips and are paying royalties to each other to manufacture those chips
Perhaps we follow the lead of other diy organizations such as Arduino and make all designs shared in diyaudio open for anyone to manufacture...
1- The "law" does not protect the "inventor"...
"NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- Patent reform cleared another major hurdle on Thursday, when the House of Representatives voted overwhelmingly to approve a bill that would fundamentally change the way the government treats intellectual property.
...
At the core of both bills is a transition of the U.S. patent law from a "first to invent" to a "first to file" system. That would give the patent to the first applicant, rather than the first inventor. It's the standard most of the rest of the world uses, since it prevents inventors from coming out of the woodwork and and laying claim to a patent."
2- When you buy a "knockoff" from China, other people benefit much more ...
Eamonn Fingleton Makes a $10,000 Offer - James Fallows - International - The Atlantic (take a look at the graph)
When you buy that shanzai phone, most of the money goes to those companies who invented the chips and are paying royalties to each other to manufacture those chips
Perhaps we follow the lead of other diy organizations such as Arduino and make all designs shared in diyaudio open for anyone to manufacture...
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We have nothing to fear !
I looked very carefully at the 1000 or so chinese Ebay kits/PCB's. In general - what a pile of junk!! Take the over rated MOSFET amp - Diy 2x 90w mosfet power amplifier kit set | eBay
He took the public domain amp ..... 60 Watt MosFet Audio Amplifier - RED - Page100 , and not knowing a damn thing about amps , made a non - thermal compensated IRFP vertical mosfet "time bomb" out of it.
Now ... on to the fact that most of these kits use bad parts - look carefully at the photo's and you will see a portfolio of the major "badcaps" manufacturers.
Extremely over- rated = MX100 Audio power amplifier board 200W+200W DIY KIT | eBay
NO 200w out of a single BJT to-3p pair - PMPO or something ?
The lack of design/engineering know-how is appalling. 100 "KMY" capacitors (many google hits for "badcaps") DIY AC-DC POWER SUPPLY BOARD KIT FOR POWER AMPLIFIER | eBay
wow ! 25 cents per capacitor, snaking along 10ft of inductive long PCB traces will surely make an audiophile sing praises. Most of the kits are like this , nothing more than cheap knockoff's of public domain circuits , most of dubious design .... nothing outstanding (4 pair EF2 bjt OP's - no triples , very few lateral mosfet offerings).
So one can't compete price wise , but it is clear that one could easily beat this lineup in the quality department. "Changing the game" might be easier than thought ! They (the ripoff artist's) might be stealing designs and using "buzzwords" like "aleph" ," pass" , "DX" but the careful DIY'er will see past the marketing "haze".
OS
I looked very carefully at the 1000 or so chinese Ebay kits/PCB's. In general - what a pile of junk!! Take the over rated MOSFET amp - Diy 2x 90w mosfet power amplifier kit set | eBay
He took the public domain amp ..... 60 Watt MosFet Audio Amplifier - RED - Page100 , and not knowing a damn thing about amps , made a non - thermal compensated IRFP vertical mosfet "time bomb" out of it.
Now ... on to the fact that most of these kits use bad parts - look carefully at the photo's and you will see a portfolio of the major "badcaps" manufacturers.
Extremely over- rated = MX100 Audio power amplifier board 200W+200W DIY KIT | eBay
NO 200w out of a single BJT to-3p pair - PMPO or something ?
The lack of design/engineering know-how is appalling. 100 "KMY" capacitors (many google hits for "badcaps") DIY AC-DC POWER SUPPLY BOARD KIT FOR POWER AMPLIFIER | eBay
wow ! 25 cents per capacitor, snaking along 10ft of inductive long PCB traces will surely make an audiophile sing praises. Most of the kits are like this , nothing more than cheap knockoff's of public domain circuits , most of dubious design .... nothing outstanding (4 pair EF2 bjt OP's - no triples , very few lateral mosfet offerings).
So one can't compete price wise , but it is clear that one could easily beat this lineup in the quality department. "Changing the game" might be easier than thought !
They (the ripoff artist's) might be stealing designs and using "buzzwords" like "aleph" ," pass" , "DX" but the careful DIY'er will see past the marketing "haze". OS
DIYAudio has been specifically authorized to sell some boards using my IP
with the intent of benefiting the site and the DIY community.
If someone wants to cobble boards together for designs I have published for
DIY purposes, that's fine. If they advertise and sell them using my
trademarks without authorization, that's not so fine as it potentially
damages my economic interests. I have international distributors who
respond with "I can't handle your product because I have to compete with
people using your trademarks to sell knock-offs." Of course that creates a
situation which compromises my desire to publish stuff, so respect for my
needs on this issue is matter both of integrity and personal interest for
DIYers.
I looked very carefully at the 1000 or so chinese Ebay kits/PCB's. In general - what a pile of junk!! Take the over rated MOSFET amp - Diy 2x 90w mosfet power amplifier kit set | eBay
He took the public domain amp ..... 60 Watt MosFet Audio Amplifier - RED - Page100 , and not knowing a damn thing about amps , made a non - thermal compensated IRFP vertical mosfet "time bomb" out of it.
Now ... on to the fact that most of these kits use bad parts - look carefully at the photo's and you will see a portfolio of the major "badcaps" manufacturers.
Extremely over- rated = MX100 Audio power amplifier board 200W+200W DIY KIT | eBay
NO 200w out of a single BJT to-3p pair - PMPO or something ?
The lack of design/engineering know-how is appalling. 100 "KMY" capacitors (many google hits for "badcaps") DIY AC-DC POWER SUPPLY BOARD KIT FOR POWER AMPLIFIER | eBay
wow ! 25 cents per capacitor, snaking along 10ft of inductive long PCB traces will surely make an audiophile sing praises. Most of the kits are like this , nothing more than cheap knockoff's of public domain circuits , most of dubious design .... nothing outstanding (4 pair EF2 bjt OP's - no triples , very few lateral mosfet offerings).
So one can't compete price wise , but it is clear that one could easily beat this lineup in the quality department. "Changing the game" might be easier than thought !
OS
I want PCBs not kits for this reason. Have you seen the PCBs avalible from jims_audio?
Ahh - jim's audio
-- Diamond differential power amp kit spk protection pair! | eBay
PCB not too bad, but he does not include the njw OP's he shows. Caps are "no-name" ... layout is far from symmetric. High current to-92 VAS (bad mtbf) ... it could be "re-engineered".
Class A dynamic biasing 80W amplifier PCB Quad 405 2pcs | eBay
This one is actually kind of cool ! very 70's- ish layout , might make for a nice build !
His Niam 140 50w is good (even has flyback diodes) , the right parts - read self and Cordell's books - good to go.
No real big amps to speak of besides the first one. Oh .. there is the GOLDMUND .. geez only 60w/stereo. Jim seems to have "lifted" Borbely , jc-2's (Curl) , pass. PCB's look to be good quality.
Yes , the "game" needs to be changed.
OS
-- Diamond differential power amp kit spk protection pair! | eBay
PCB not too bad, but he does not include the njw OP's he shows. Caps are "no-name" ... layout is far from symmetric. High current to-92 VAS (bad mtbf) ... it could be "re-engineered".
Class A dynamic biasing 80W amplifier PCB Quad 405 2pcs | eBay
This one is actually kind of cool ! very 70's- ish layout , might make for a nice build !
His Niam 140 50w is good (even has flyback diodes) , the right parts - read self and Cordell's books - good to go.
No real big amps to speak of besides the first one. Oh .. there is the GOLDMUND .. geez only 60w/stereo. Jim seems to have "lifted" Borbely , jc-2's (Curl) , pass. PCB's look to be good quality.
Yes , the "game" needs to be changed.
OS
About patent law: the main purpose of it is actually to prevent companies from keeping their inventions secret. Without it, companies would do their very best to keep as much of their know-how secret as possible. With patent laws, companies publish their best ideas in the patent descriptions in exchange for a temporary monopoly (maximum 20 years in most countries and 23 years in the US I believe, provided the companies keep paying the fee).
The first claims in a patent are always as broad as possible, the later claims narrow down on a specific implementation ("preferred embodiment" in patent lingo). If you are lucky, the patent office will approve all your claims and you have a temporary monopoly on everything that remotely looks like your invention. If you are not so lucky, the first couple of claims get rejected, but you may still get a temporary monopoly on the "preferred embodiment" that you actually use.
For example, if you invent an MOS circuit that could also be made with other active devices, you could emphasise in the first claims that the devices could be MOSFET's, JFET's, bipolar transistors, valves, MESFET's, HEMT's or any other amplifying device. The preferred embodiment would then be your MOS circuit.
Copyright law prohibits making an exact copy of anything that has a certain degree of originality, but it does not prohibit using the ideas behind a certain design.
The first claims in a patent are always as broad as possible, the later claims narrow down on a specific implementation ("preferred embodiment" in patent lingo). If you are lucky, the patent office will approve all your claims and you have a temporary monopoly on everything that remotely looks like your invention. If you are not so lucky, the first couple of claims get rejected, but you may still get a temporary monopoly on the "preferred embodiment" that you actually use.
For example, if you invent an MOS circuit that could also be made with other active devices, you could emphasise in the first claims that the devices could be MOSFET's, JFET's, bipolar transistors, valves, MESFET's, HEMT's or any other amplifying device. The preferred embodiment would then be your MOS circuit.
Copyright law prohibits making an exact copy of anything that has a certain degree of originality, but it does not prohibit using the ideas behind a certain design.
that argument makes as much sense as a submarine with screen doors.... and it's not only off topic, but now you're also taking potshots at religion (on this board, that's also a no-no).... i wouldn't blame the mod if he shuts this thread down right now...You forgot student D who read something a bloke on the internet wrote on a forum that said 'copying is stealing' so he proceeds to loot student B's apartment because he also read in the bible when he was at Sunday School 'an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth'.
The possibilites are truly endless
we WERE originally talking about companies that abuse (maybe that's an understatement) an inventor's permission to make individual copies of what they invented.
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