♫♪ My little cheap Circlophone© ♫♪ - Page 2 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Amplifiers > Solid State

Solid State Talk all about solid state amplification.

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 26th May 2011, 02:06 PM   #11
diyAudio Member
 
tiefbassuebertr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: D-55629 Schwarzerden
interesting circuit. Looks a bit like that one about
Siliconix & Siemens NMOS amplifiers
especially the circuit by post #23 and #24. The second differential stage by your circuit uses additional two zeners (at whole 24V) to avoid different C-E voltages by Q5 and Q6 (unfortunately without bypass capacitor in parallel). This step I miss by the previos mentioned schematic.
William T. Chater's approach uses a cascode solution at this place - go to
Bias control for power amplifiers
and to post #40 about
Only N-Channel MOSFETs (NMOS); better Audio from non complements by Audio Power?
William T. Chater's approach for the bias servo unit looks also very intersting.
I don't understand the aim of follow devices in the schematic of post #1:
1) R26 and
2) R2

Last edited by tiefbassuebertr; 26th May 2011 at 02:18 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2011, 03:43 PM   #12
Elvee is offline Elvee  Belgium
diyAudio Member
 
Elvee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiefbassuebertr View Post
interesting circuit. Looks a bit like that one about
Siliconix & Siemens NMOS amplifiers
especially the circuit by post #23 and #24. The second differential stage by your circuit uses additional two zeners (at whole 24V) to avoid different C-E voltages by Q5 and Q6 (unfortunately without bypass capacitor in parallel).
The increase in the collector voltage of Q5 due the zener's dynamic resistance is so tiny that it has no influence whatsoever, and requires no capacitor.

Quote:
William T. Chater's approach uses a cascode solution at this place - go to
Bias control for power amplifiers
Improvements are certainly possible, the goal here is not to achieve top performances, but a good trade-off between performances and complexity.

Quote:
William T. Chater's approach for the bias servo unit looks also very intersting.
It is in fact quite different: Chater's system is sampled, whereas the Circlophone works in real time.
This is of great importance, because the bias processor can correct in real time (at audio speed) the transfer function of the whole amplifier, in particular the crossover region.
This is what gives it its class A attributes.
See below the picture of the tail current of the input LTP: you can see that it is continuously varying to the rythm of the audio signal.
This explains why the THD figure is approximately 10x lower than for a traditional basic amplifier having a similar loop gain.

Also, Chater's system may work on paper, but in practice, this kind of scheme is fiendishly difficult to be made to work in reality.
Visch's topology is somewhat comparable, and it can easily be upset by real musical signals.
Quote:
I don't understand the aim of follow devices in the schematic of post #1:
1) R26 and
2) R2
R26 breaks a possible short-circuiting path from supply to supply, and improves the overall RFI tolerance by adding damping in the path.
It increases the resilience of the design in case of "unexpected events".
It could be omitted, it has no active role.

R2 is part of the main lag/lead network compensating the common-mode loop formed by the bias processor.

Quote:
Looks very nice. Are you planning a PCB?
Sorry, I don't do PCBs. Maybe you can do it
Attached Images
File Type: gif Circlophone3.GIF (66.3 KB, 3241 views)
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2011, 03:56 PM   #13
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Watertown, NY
I am replacing the livingroom lm3886 amp with a Dx Precision I. Was going to move the chipamp to the living room. But.... it already has high current regulated +-25V supplies in it so... I could replace that with this.

How about transistor substitution? I have a bunch of old power transistors, and new ones that were given to me or salvaged. I have about 10 of each 2SD1718A_S and 2SB1163A_S.

So if as long as the parameters in the datasheets are ok comparing between different transistors can I substitute some of these? I have tons of 2N5401/5551 as well.
  Reply With Quote
Old 27th May 2011, 07:25 AM   #14
parb is offline parb  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Asia and United States
I like it... If I get some time over I think I'll go and build this for joy and fun!

Par
  Reply With Quote
Old 27th May 2011, 07:43 AM   #15
diyAudio Member
 
blakkshepeaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Country Victoria Australia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvee View Post


Sorry, I don't do PCBs. Maybe you can do it
That would make it number 26 on a list that grows almost daily !

Who knows, maybe one day...

Sure looks interesting though.

Regards,
Keith Arnold
  Reply With Quote
Old 27th May 2011, 10:11 AM   #16
Elvee is offline Elvee  Belgium
diyAudio Member
 
Elvee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by odysseybmx414 View Post
I am replacing the livingroom lm3886 amp with a Dx Precision I. Was going to move the chipamp to the living room. But.... it already has high current regulated +-25V supplies in it so... I could replace that with this.

How about transistor substitution? I have a bunch of old power transistors, and new ones that were given to me or salvaged. I have about 10 of each 2SD1718A_S and 2SB1163A_S.

So if as long as the parameters in the datasheets are ok comparing between different transistors can I substitute some of these? I have tons of 2N5401/5551 as well.
Regulated supplies are a luxury which the Circlophone can do without.
But it will work, of course.

This design has built-in component tolerance, and will happily accept almost anything you throw at it.
So far, the following types have been actually tested:
-Various brands of 2N3055's
-2N3772 Moto
-2N6259 STC
-MJ15024 Moto
-BDY58 ST
-BDX95 Philips
-BD183 Philips
-BD317 Tesla
-2SD424 EIC
-2SD555 NEC
.... and I am probably forgetting one or two more.

For Q5 and Q6, I have tried 2N3019, 2N2219, 2N1893, and I just checked with 2N5551, it also works, but I'm afraid they are a bit borderline: at 25V supply, the dissipation will be close to the 350mW abs. max. Pd.

The circuit is so tolerant, it will even work with fake or mismatched transistors, or even a different output configuration.
This is illustrated in the following pics:
The first shows what happens when everything that should be matched has been deliberately sabotaged: it still work perfectly.
The second has a darlington substituted for the CFP: the distorsion is bit up, but it remains pretty good.

There are some things to keep in mind, though:
The compensations have been optimized for 2N3055's, and if you use very different transistors, there might be some slight differences in the dynamic behaviour: with 2N3772 or 2N6259's, the slew rate is somewhat decreased.
Also, if you use fast (Ft>5MHz) transistors, the capacitor C11 shown as optional on the schematic becomes mandatory to remove local instabilities, and the circuit becomes more sensitive to the lengths of cable to the transistors.
Your 2SD1718 falls into that category, with an Ft=20MHz. It is pretty similar to the BDY58, which has been tested and works fine with C11 (without C11, there are low level VHF oscillations).
Also, a general remark, the value of C12 at 820pF is probably an overkill, and 180pF should normally be enough in practically all circumstances.
Finally, Q5 and Q6 should have a low enough collector capacitance, less than 15pF.
Most of the TO5/TO39's are suitable, including for the dissipation.
Attached Images
File Type: gif CircloMod.gif (32.4 KB, 3025 views)
File Type: gif DarCircloph.GIF (43.5 KB, 2891 views)
  Reply With Quote
Old 27th May 2011, 11:47 AM   #17
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Watertown, NY
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvee View Post
Regulated supplies are a luxury which the Circlophone can do without.
But it will work, of course.

This design has built-in component tolerance, and will happily accept almost anything you throw at it.
So far, the following types have been actually tested:
-Various brands of 2N3055's
-2N3772 Moto
-2N6259 STC
-MJ15024 Moto
-BDY58 ST
-BDX95 Philips
-BD183 Philips
-BD317 Tesla
-2SD424 EIC
-2SD555 NEC
.... and I am probably forgetting one or two more.

For Q5 and Q6, I have tried 2N3019, 2N2219, 2N1893, and I just checked with 2N5551, it also works, but I'm afraid they are a bit borderline: at 25V supply, the dissipation will be close to the 350mW abs. max. Pd.

The circuit is so tolerant, it will even work with fake or mismatched transistors, or even a different output configuration.
This is illustrated in the following pics:
The first shows what happens when everything that should be matched has been deliberately sabotaged: it still work perfectly.
The second has a darlington substituted for the CFP: the distorsion is bit up, but it remains pretty good.

There are some things to keep in mind, though:
The compensations have been optimized for 2N3055's, and if you use very different transistors, there might be some slight differences in the dynamic behaviour: with 2N3772 or 2N6259's, the slew rate is somewhat decreased.
Also, if you use fast (Ft>5MHz) transistors, the capacitor C11 shown as optional on the schematic becomes mandatory to remove local instabilities, and the circuit becomes more sensitive to the lengths of cable to the transistors.
Your 2SD1718 falls into that category, with an Ft=20MHz. It is pretty similar to the BDY58, which has been tested and works fine with C11 (without C11, there are low level VHF oscillations).
Also, a general remark, the value of C12 at 820pF is probably an overkill, and 180pF should normally be enough in practically all circumstances.
Finally, Q5 and Q6 should have a low enough collector capacitance, less than 15pF.
Most of the TO5/TO39's are suitable, including for the dissipation.
Thank you for the information. I appreciate it. I'll see what I've got.
  Reply With Quote
Old 29th May 2011, 10:01 AM   #18
Elvee is offline Elvee  Belgium
diyAudio Member
 
Elvee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
One or two details are still worth mentioning:

Since the structure of the circuit is highly symmetrical, both halves tend to "wake up" and "die" in a synchronous manner.

Residual asymmetries are taken care of by the bias processor, which forces a balance between the positive and the negative side.
Consequence?
There is inherently little or no power-on thump, without relay or additional circuitry.
(this doesn't mean that there will be no thump in a complete amplifier: if the preamplifier generates a thump after the amplifier has started, it will be amplified).

The virtual class A mode of operation is more than mere marketing words, and this is illustrated by the following:
Class B amplifiers normally have a substantial increase in THD when driving reactive loads, in particular inductive ones, whereas the THD of a good class A amplifier remains almost unaffected.
As shown below, the Circlophone© has its THD practically unchanged on a strongly inductive load.

Some more transistors have been (successfully) tried:
EP1926 Texas
BDY91 Philips
T-125 Solitron
SJ5135 Moto
41013 RCA

A word of warning for those attempting to simulate the circuit:
The DC and low frequency operation is fairly realistic, including the functioning of the bias processor, but the high frequency dynamic behaviour diverges completely:
In reality, the full power bandwidth easily exceeds 100KHz regardless what brand of 2N3055 is used, but the sim shows problems as early as 20KHz.
I don't know whether this is an inaccurate model problem, or a more fundamental limitation of LTspice.
Attached Images
File Type: gif CircloReactive.gif (40.7 KB, 2794 views)
  Reply With Quote
Old 29th May 2011, 10:43 AM   #19
juma is offline juma  Germany
diyAudio Member
 
juma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Berlin
Elvee, nice circuit
What happens if you use modern, faster devices like 2sc5200, instead of 2n3055 ?
  Reply With Quote
Old 29th May 2011, 10:51 AM   #20
diyAudio Moderator
 
pinkmouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chatham, England
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvee View Post
Sorry, I don't do PCBs. Maybe you can do it
Interesting. It may have just gone on my list of designs to try. Don't get your hopes up too high though, it's a long list.
__________________
Rick: Oh Cliff / Sometimes it must be difficult not to feel as if / You really are a cliff / when fascists keep trying to push you over it! / Are they the lemmings / Or are you, Cliff? / Or are you Cliff?
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Need help with OB design - cheap, cheap, cheap djn Multi-Way 38 30th May 2010 07:26 AM
Scosche SPL meter: Cheap find with potential, or cheap junk? theAnonymous1 Everything Else 5 11th October 2006 04:40 AM
Alpine cda-9831 vs. 9833 vs. 9835 cbecker33 Car Audio 3 10th December 2004 01:47 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 06:50 AM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2