oh a wiseguy eh? nyuk nyuk
Well you didn't know I was a wise guy at the time I guess, and free advice is, well after all sometimes worth what you paid for it. Still, you didn't answer my question. At what frequency, roughly, would a typical 100 ohm 5W WW start to attenuate the signal, and why, if the plate is unimpeded would it matter?
The designer never specified non-inductive, in this position, but he did say 5W WW. I would hardly call that running around spec'ing non-liner components willy nilly. It's true, you didn't tell me to do it, but, for a newbe, your position of confidence "I wouldn't use a WW in that postion unless it's a non-inductive one for starters" does hold some sway. And yes, I looked into multiple metal foils.
I guess it is a bit of a back stab, sorry about that, but I thought it was a perfect example of what happens when people offer up an opinion as fact. To be fair, the onus is on me, and in all likelihood I would have done a bit of research before going to all the trouble of replacing all those resistors.
Caveat emptor
Chris
Well you didn't know I was a wise guy at the time I guess, and free advice is, well after all sometimes worth what you paid for it. Still, you didn't answer my question. At what frequency, roughly, would a typical 100 ohm 5W WW start to attenuate the signal, and why, if the plate is unimpeded would it matter?
The designer never specified non-inductive, in this position, but he did say 5W WW. I would hardly call that running around spec'ing non-liner components willy nilly. It's true, you didn't tell me to do it, but, for a newbe, your position of confidence "I wouldn't use a WW in that postion unless it's a non-inductive one for starters" does hold some sway. And yes, I looked into multiple metal foils.
I guess it is a bit of a back stab, sorry about that, but I thought it was a perfect example of what happens when people offer up an opinion as fact. To be fair, the onus is on me, and in all likelihood I would have done a bit of research before going to all the trouble of replacing all those resistors.
Caveat emptor
Chris
Spread out!
Ahhh, I assume you saw my Three Stooges Wine Rating System?
http://www.the-stupids.com/aboutus_3stooges.html
Ahhh, I assume you saw my Three Stooges Wine Rating System?
http://www.the-stupids.com/aboutus_3stooges.html
Hi,
For the life of me I don't see any reason whatsoever to use a WW resistor in that position and as I said before non-inductive ones would be the better choice.
And I can't see why mr.Rozenblit would either, if at all he did...the parts list doesn't state that at all.
Don't forget neither that it's not the effect of one resistors' inductance your facing but the combined effect of 8 of them per channel.
We have no way of knowing your background or knowledge when you start posting other than your profile.
As far as I recall you were wondering why one of those resistors went south and I'll tell you nicely, once again that it's not a good idea to put stray inductance on something as sensitive as a grid.
Not only will it be non-linear, it may also cause some circuits to oscilate causing damage in speakers or the tube or...both.
If anyone here thinks it is a good idea to put stray inductance in that position than I'd like to know.
No hard feelings Christopher, I now hace you flagged as a newbe.
Even though you managed to build your own OTLs which puts you in my "newbe to respect" book.
All in all it would be much productive if you dug up the old thread and told us how this amp really fares compared to whatever else you had a chance to compare it with.
Cheers,
For the life of me I don't see any reason whatsoever to use a WW resistor in that position and as I said before non-inductive ones would be the better choice.
And I can't see why mr.Rozenblit would either, if at all he did...the parts list doesn't state that at all.
Don't forget neither that it's not the effect of one resistors' inductance your facing but the combined effect of 8 of them per channel.
We have no way of knowing your background or knowledge when you start posting other than your profile.
As far as I recall you were wondering why one of those resistors went south and I'll tell you nicely, once again that it's not a good idea to put stray inductance on something as sensitive as a grid.
Not only will it be non-linear, it may also cause some circuits to oscilate causing damage in speakers or the tube or...both.
If anyone here thinks it is a good idea to put stray inductance in that position than I'd like to know.
No hard feelings Christopher, I now hace you flagged as a newbe.
Even though you managed to build your own OTLs which puts you in my "newbe to respect" book.
All in all it would be much productive if you dug up the old thread and told us how this amp really fares compared to whatever else you had a chance to compare it with.
Cheers,
Just to be clear, I'm a newbe when it comes to design, and, more importantly audio design. I've been an Avionics technician for 20 years or so, and have the college electronics theory to go with it. The nature of the job however, relies on deductive, systems troubleshooting, and electronics theory (beyond ohm's law) just doesn't enter into it, thus, my theory skills have waned over the last 20 years. I just got into high end audio last year, and so have been learning, reading, and building at a frenetic pace. Building the OTL's was a long process, but to be honest, well within my capabilities, I just get a little lost when I try and figure out some part of the circuit. Luckily my dad has been designing and building research electronics for 30 some odd years and any tough questions were fielded by him. At the beginning of his career he was designing tube electronics to test transistors for then, Northern Electric, how cool is that?
As for why would Bruce put that in there? I'll ask him and get back to you. The parts list doesn't specify, but in the book he says all 5W resistors are wire wound. I trust him, I have both his books and have read them both cover to cover. He is very pragmatic in his approach to what matters, and if he thinks it makes no difference, but it is more complicated or expensive, he won't do it. To that I can only conclude, he thinks it makes no difference. But what the heck, I'll ask him.
My appologies to all for going so far off topic, it won't happen again, I promise.
As for why would Bruce put that in there? I'll ask him and get back to you. The parts list doesn't specify, but in the book he says all 5W resistors are wire wound. I trust him, I have both his books and have read them both cover to cover. He is very pragmatic in his approach to what matters, and if he thinks it makes no difference, but it is more complicated or expensive, he won't do it. To that I can only conclude, he thinks it makes no difference. But what the heck, I'll ask him.
My appologies to all for going so far off topic, it won't happen again, I promise.
Re: aye carumba 1117
Christopher,
I don't know how can you cay I missed the point.
I gave an example that changing a very important component (like an op-amp) on an integrated amplifier or preamp gives a huge difference, sometimes it's like changing amplifier.
I was trying to make a point, nothing more.
For me that Bryston amp plays much better than the Onkyo, or else we're talking deaf people (sorry to repeat myself).
Then other people came claiming the NEs are better blah blah blah...
Some people think they are always right and they know everything.
They can't take a different oppinion, and that's why we lost plenty of time talking crap (or not).
Over the time I made plenty of blind tests and I can't agree with NW or SY.
Sorry.
You're welcome to this thread.
Christopher said:
Christopher,
I don't know how can you cay I missed the point.
I gave an example that changing a very important component (like an op-amp) on an integrated amplifier or preamp gives a huge difference, sometimes it's like changing amplifier.
I was trying to make a point, nothing more.
For me that Bryston amp plays much better than the Onkyo, or else we're talking deaf people (sorry to repeat myself).
Then other people came claiming the NEs are better blah blah blah...
Some people think they are always right and they know everything.
They can't take a different oppinion, and that's why we lost plenty of time talking crap (or not).
Over the time I made plenty of blind tests and I can't agree with NW or SY.
Sorry.
You're welcome to this thread.
don't cry for me
Well Jan, that's what the thread is about isn't it? If you can't pick out one op amp over another once you've been robbed of the knowlege of which is which, then fighting over which sounds better is a moot point. But, if you are finding new combinations that allow say flat response into any load, well now, fight on brother. Remember, no one said all amps are the same. That's silly.
The thing is, while all these people have been trying to make better sounding cables and find the best sounding capacitors,(using the 'yup sounds better than before' method) they haven't made anything sound better, they've just diverted the money away from things that indisputably will make a difference.
I have a co-worker who is a real audio voodo nut. He just tried to convince me his son of statmat was a marked improvement over his statmat. So here's a thought experiment, he has easily 4500 bucks tied up in cables and isolation feet and various other "tweaks" which objectively make little if any audible difference. I'm including 2 power conditioners in that, and while they may make an audible difference it is very small if it exists at all. He has a Classe 25W(bridgable) driving totem forests. It sounds very nice. Now if he had the 4500 clams he paid for all the other stuff, he could have spent it on speakers that would easily outperform his totems, or another Classe and double his power. So would carefully chosen 10,000 dollar speakers driven by a good CDP/amp combo through a bunch of off the shelf interconnects and power cords, and zip cord speaker cable, likely sound better than what he has now? I know what I'd pick.
The way I see it, in my quest for audio nirvana, I can cross amplification and cabling off my list of things to do. I'm back to the old philosohpy from the 70's where speakers are the number one concern.
Carlos, you did it again.
Chris.
janneman said:
Lucky you! We got to keep on fighting over BG's and opamps and whatnot, so that YOU can enjoy good music, DB or not. Enjoy!
Jan Didden
Well Jan, that's what the thread is about isn't it? If you can't pick out one op amp over another once you've been robbed of the knowlege of which is which, then fighting over which sounds better is a moot point. But, if you are finding new combinations that allow say flat response into any load, well now, fight on brother. Remember, no one said all amps are the same. That's silly.
The thing is, while all these people have been trying to make better sounding cables and find the best sounding capacitors,(using the 'yup sounds better than before' method) they haven't made anything sound better, they've just diverted the money away from things that indisputably will make a difference.
I have a co-worker who is a real audio voodo nut. He just tried to convince me his son of statmat was a marked improvement over his statmat. So here's a thought experiment, he has easily 4500 bucks tied up in cables and isolation feet and various other "tweaks" which objectively make little if any audible difference. I'm including 2 power conditioners in that, and while they may make an audible difference it is very small if it exists at all. He has a Classe 25W(bridgable) driving totem forests. It sounds very nice. Now if he had the 4500 clams he paid for all the other stuff, he could have spent it on speakers that would easily outperform his totems, or another Classe and double his power. So would carefully chosen 10,000 dollar speakers driven by a good CDP/amp combo through a bunch of off the shelf interconnects and power cords, and zip cord speaker cable, likely sound better than what he has now? I know what I'd pick.
The way I see it, in my quest for audio nirvana, I can cross amplification and cabling off my list of things to do. I'm back to the old philosohpy from the 70's where speakers are the number one concern.
Carlos, you did it again.
Chris.
Chris- not to mention room treatments. I could sure do a lot to objectively improve the acoustics in here for 4500 bucks. Heck, for that much, I could send the wife and kid on a two week tour of Tahiti, which would let me listen without hearing the constant, "Turn that damn thing down!" That's a significant improvement in signal-to-noise.
Chris and SY,
Please stop giving those examples because there's stupid people everywhere.
There's plenty of stories like that.
Many years ago (more than 10) I changed my Supra 2.5 speaker cable for Kimber 4PR.
Much better.
Some years later I changed the 4PR for 4TC.
Impressive.
I really feel that I don't need anything better.
I'm happy with my speaker cables for my lifetime.
You don't need to spend thousands.
Oh, and Chris, tell your friend to stop fiddling around and build a gainclone.
Please stop giving those examples because there's stupid people everywhere.
There's plenty of stories like that.
Many years ago (more than 10) I changed my Supra 2.5 speaker cable for Kimber 4PR.
Much better.
Some years later I changed the 4PR for 4TC.
Impressive.
I really feel that I don't need anything better.
I'm happy with my speaker cables for my lifetime.
You don't need to spend thousands.
Oh, and Chris, tell your friend to stop fiddling around and build a gainclone.
sometimes tragedy can be funny
Carlos,
The point is, he beleives that all that stuff makes a difference, most of it won't, some of it might, but, totem forests with all the fancy cables that you say make a difference, or Quad 988's or (insert favorite $10K speaker here) and 100 bucks for all interconnects, speaker cable, power cords etc. You decide.
Chris
Carlos,
The point is, he beleives that all that stuff makes a difference, most of it won't, some of it might, but, totem forests with all the fancy cables that you say make a difference, or Quad 988's or (insert favorite $10K speaker here) and 100 bucks for all interconnects, speaker cable, power cords etc. You decide.
Chris
Chris,
I agree with you on his mad system.
There's a point of "equilibrium" in everything.
You can't expect also that a portable cd-player and a supermarket amp will play well with Apogee speakers.
We're not blind, and we all know what we're doing (I think).
Now...
Cheap speakers with ultra-expensive cables?
It's the same nonsense.
You can't be so fundamentalist to the point of saying that the speakers
are number one priority.
Actually, I think it's the other way around, from the source to the speaker.
Remember: trash in, trash out.
Anyway, you can have a very good speaker, a very good amp, and you may have the bad luck the two things don't mach!
Don't try to make it simple, because it's much more complicated than you think.
That's why I think people should LISTEN, before they buy expensive stuff.
Preferably at home.
There are many charlatans willing to sell you anything expensive.
There are others, very few, audio dealers, that advise you, and in the case of expensive high-end they can even demonstrate the equipment at your home.
You don't throw money away.
It's hard to earn.
I agree with you on his mad system.
There's a point of "equilibrium" in everything.
You can't expect also that a portable cd-player and a supermarket amp will play well with Apogee speakers.
We're not blind, and we all know what we're doing (I think).
Now...
Cheap speakers with ultra-expensive cables?
It's the same nonsense.
You can't be so fundamentalist to the point of saying that the speakers
are number one priority.
Actually, I think it's the other way around, from the source to the speaker.
Remember: trash in, trash out.
Anyway, you can have a very good speaker, a very good amp, and you may have the bad luck the two things don't mach!
Don't try to make it simple, because it's much more complicated than you think.
That's why I think people should LISTEN, before they buy expensive stuff.
Preferably at home.
There are many charlatans willing to sell you anything expensive.
There are others, very few, audio dealers, that advise you, and in the case of expensive high-end they can even demonstrate the equipment at your home.
You don't throw money away.
It's hard to earn.
"don't condescend to me mother@#$%" -Brad Pit from "True Romance"
Actually it's simpler than you think. If we can, for a moment accept the fact that using very good equipment, we cannot measure, at a mic in the sweet spot, a difference between say Kimber 4TC, and lamp cord, (if you think otherwise, please provide some documentation) but we can measure a difference, between your Appogee's and my NHT's, where should I devote the money that is so hard to earn? It is in fact, that simple. I will always put the money where it will make the most difference. I can't disagree that a portable player will not sound as good as a really good one, but then I haven't listened blind to compare. But for now we will assume a good player makes an appreciable difference, and I have Appogee speakers connected with zip cord to a supermarket amp and a portable CDP, then where next to sink 1000 bucks? Nordost Valhalla, or rega player? Or, would you keep the CDP and replace the supermarket amp with a gainclone? At what point will spending that 1000 bucks on upgrading from lamp cord be money well spent?
Your Apogees were developed with extensive use of an anechoic chamber and very sensitive instrumentation, your Kimber's were not. Why do you suppose that is?
No,I don't think so, any amp/speaker mismatch can be reduced to damping factor, which of course means one of the two should not be called "very good" likely, the amp.
Actually it's simpler than you think. If we can, for a moment accept the fact that using very good equipment, we cannot measure, at a mic in the sweet spot, a difference between say Kimber 4TC, and lamp cord, (if you think otherwise, please provide some documentation) but we can measure a difference, between your Appogee's and my NHT's, where should I devote the money that is so hard to earn? It is in fact, that simple. I will always put the money where it will make the most difference. I can't disagree that a portable player will not sound as good as a really good one, but then I haven't listened blind to compare. But for now we will assume a good player makes an appreciable difference, and I have Appogee speakers connected with zip cord to a supermarket amp and a portable CDP, then where next to sink 1000 bucks? Nordost Valhalla, or rega player? Or, would you keep the CDP and replace the supermarket amp with a gainclone? At what point will spending that 1000 bucks on upgrading from lamp cord be money well spent?
Your Apogees were developed with extensive use of an anechoic chamber and very sensitive instrumentation, your Kimber's were not. Why do you suppose that is?
No,I don't think so, any amp/speaker mismatch can be reduced to damping factor, which of course means one of the two should not be called "very good" likely, the amp.
help me out here
I'm not sure what you mean by load compatability. Are we talking amp power vs. speaker sensitivity? In which case I kind of ignored that on purpose. IMHO when using the term 'very good' to describe an amp I'm thinking over 25W, and speaker at least 85db. Am I missing something?
Chris
I rarely have a 'humble' opinion so mark this one down.
I'm not sure what you mean by load compatability. Are we talking amp power vs. speaker sensitivity? In which case I kind of ignored that on purpose. IMHO when using the term 'very good' to describe an amp I'm thinking over 25W, and speaker at least 85db. Am I missing something?
Chris
I rarely have a 'humble' opinion so mark this one down.
It's a little more complex than that. Some speaker/cable loads are pathological. I remember one high end cable that had so much capacitance that it would cause a lot of otherwise-good amps to burst into full-blown oscillation. There was a popular minimonitor that had an impedance minimum of half an ohm. There are weedy amps that perform fine into 8 ohms resistive for the spec sheet, but that cough and wheeze (measurably so!) when asked to drive low impedances or highly reactive loads. And 25 watts won't cut it on speakers with lowish sensitivity; my little triode amps that did so well on my cone speakers were unable to reach anything like a normal listening level on my ESLs without clipping.
Note that all of these things are easily measurable, so there's no voodoo involved.
Note that all of these things are easily measurable, so there's no voodoo involved.
ok SY but......
Any speaker getting down to a half ohm is definately lowering the damping factor, and as such I don't think I would call that a 'very good'speaker. As for the high capacitance, you got me there, I actually thought of that after I posted. The ESL's that I worship from afar do provide a tough capacitive load to many amps that could be considered 'very good'. But, as for the 'weedy amps' that have trouble with a reactive load, could they be regarded as 'very good'?And a high capacitance cable, is not an amp/speaker mismatch but an amp/cable mismatch. And that could never happen with zip cord. But the statement was regarding mismatch between 'a very good speaker and a very good amp' so excusing the ESL crowd, and reasonable power vs sensitivity we're still back to damping factor.
Hold on a minute, I think I just went one 'but' too far, yup, I did, gotta concede that one, I oversimplifed, sorry Carlos. It was a good try though don't ya think
Any speaker getting down to a half ohm is definately lowering the damping factor, and as such I don't think I would call that a 'very good'speaker. As for the high capacitance, you got me there, I actually thought of that after I posted. The ESL's that I worship from afar do provide a tough capacitive load to many amps that could be considered 'very good'. But, as for the 'weedy amps' that have trouble with a reactive load, could they be regarded as 'very good'?And a high capacitance cable, is not an amp/speaker mismatch but an amp/cable mismatch. And that could never happen with zip cord.
But the statement was regarding mismatch between 'a very good speaker and a very good amp' so excusing the ESL crowd, and reasonable power vs sensitivity we're still back to damping factor. Hold on a minute, I think I just went one 'but' too far, yup, I did, gotta concede that one, I oversimplifed, sorry Carlos. It was a good try though don't ya think
The cruel 0.5 ohm speaker was the WATT, by all accounts a very good speaker. I think some of the Apogees did something similar, but I don't have first-hand knowledge.
I'm sure that we could put together a long list of speakers that are good-sounding with an amp that can drive them, but present a toxic load to lesser boxes of gain.
I'm sure that we could put together a long list of speakers that are good-sounding with an amp that can drive them, but present a toxic load to lesser boxes of gain.
"a little help here" - Keanu Reeves "The Matrix"
Ok ok uncle! Boy, you gotta stay sharp in this rink, people hit hard! Learned something I didn't know though, even if it did sting a bit. He He!
Gotta cross that one off the list of speakers for me though, don't think my OTL's would like 'em too much. Same for the Apogees. Which brings up an interesting point. Knowing what I know from specs, not listening, In the case of my OTL's, I can immediately discount any speakers that go to such a low impedence, while reveling in anything that goes exceptionally high in impedance or capcitance. I can reliably just use the numbers to discount a whole host of speaker/amp combo's (which is more than just damping factor, any idiot knows that), where if I had to listen, I could get stuck with something that I wouldn't identify as a problem for months. But when the numbers exist, and I ignore them and prefer to choose on subjective listening tests, what does that say?
So... let's just not dwell on how wrong I can be, lest we forget the matter at hand. I think I was looking for the point where spending big wampum on speaker cables would outweigh any other change you could make in your system. (from an audibility standpoint) To the point of having a contractor come in and add a false wall to get them non-parallel for example, (assuming you've done all other acoustic treatments) Still a better investment than upgrading from zip cord, yes?
Chris
Turned that one around pretty good huh?
Ok ok uncle! Boy, you gotta stay sharp in this rink, people hit hard! Learned something I didn't know though, even if it did sting a bit. He He!
Gotta cross that one off the list of speakers for me though, don't think my OTL's would like 'em too much. Same for the Apogees. Which brings up an interesting point. Knowing what I know from specs, not listening, In the case of my OTL's, I can immediately discount any speakers that go to such a low impedence, while reveling in anything that goes exceptionally high in impedance or capcitance. I can reliably just use the numbers to discount a whole host of speaker/amp combo's (which is more than just damping factor, any idiot knows that), where if I had to listen, I could get stuck with something that I wouldn't identify as a problem for months. But when the numbers exist, and I ignore them and prefer to choose on subjective listening tests, what does that say?
So... let's just not dwell on how wrong I can be, lest we forget the matter at hand. I think I was looking for the point where spending big wampum on speaker cables would outweigh any other change you could make in your system. (from an audibility standpoint) To the point of having a contractor come in and add a false wall to get them non-parallel for example, (assuming you've done all other acoustic treatments) Still a better investment than upgrading from zip cord, yes?
Chris
Turned that one around pretty good huh?
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