SY,
You didn't understand what Peter Daniel meant.
I did.
When you really like the music, and it's well recorded, and, better still, the system makes it justice, you just want to tap your feet and groove on!
But unfortunately some systems are sleep-inducing.
As an example, a friend of mine took his cd player to my home (a Rega Planet 2000), because he didn't believe in the capabilities of my tweaked Audio Alchemy DDE v3.0 Dac (regulated PSU made by myself, OPA627s...).
Of course my dac trashed the humble Rega, the man (an audiophile) didn't believe what he was hearing from my dac.
It was an A-B test with the planet working also as a transport.
EVEN BLIND I WOUL DETECT MY DAC, DEAM IT!!!
I almost slept hearing Ben Harper on the Planet.
Definitely not for me.
It kills good (and well recorded) music.
Doesn't offend, in fact, but doesn't have dynamics and resolution.
I'm puzzled about the rave reviews in the magazines.
Oh, I even opened it!
It has a 22-pin Sanyo op-amp!!?
And very fiddly construction.
Weird animal...
You didn't understand what Peter Daniel meant.
I did.
When you really like the music, and it's well recorded, and, better still, the system makes it justice, you just want to tap your feet and groove on!
But unfortunately some systems are sleep-inducing.
As an example, a friend of mine took his cd player to my home (a Rega Planet 2000), because he didn't believe in the capabilities of my tweaked Audio Alchemy DDE v3.0 Dac (regulated PSU made by myself, OPA627s...).
Of course my dac trashed the humble Rega, the man (an audiophile) didn't believe what he was hearing from my dac.
It was an A-B test with the planet working also as a transport.
EVEN BLIND I WOUL DETECT MY DAC, DEAM IT!!!
I almost slept hearing Ben Harper on the Planet.
Definitely not for me.
It kills good (and well recorded) music.
Doesn't offend, in fact, but doesn't have dynamics and resolution.
I'm puzzled about the rave reviews in the magazines.
Oh, I even opened it!
It has a 22-pin Sanyo op-amp!!?
And very fiddly construction.
Weird animal...
Talking about caps...
Hi Peter Daniel,
Talking about caps, on your Gainclones have you tried to bypass with smaller ones?
For instance, after the 1000uf, a 100uf, and another 0.1uf poly.
And another 0.1uf poly between the + and - pins on the chip.
This is good practice with op-amps.
I suppose it would give good results with power op-amps too.
Sorry for talking about GCs in this thread, but National was kind to me again, (thankx for those LM6172s some months ago) and sent me some LM3875s, which arrived today!
I'm going to give it a try, I'm only needing to get a good transformer for this.
Hi Peter Daniel,
Talking about caps, on your Gainclones have you tried to bypass with smaller ones?
For instance, after the 1000uf, a 100uf, and another 0.1uf poly.
And another 0.1uf poly between the + and - pins on the chip.
This is good practice with op-amps.
I suppose it would give good results with power op-amps too.
Sorry for talking about GCs in this thread, but National was kind to me again, (thankx for those LM6172s some months ago) and sent me some LM3875s, which arrived today!
I'm going to give it a try, I'm only needing to get a good transformer for this.
Re: Re: The Two Peter's .......
Peter, I 100% agree with your view here. But in this forum we are mixing up two things:
1 Enjoyment of music through equipment of our own making/design whatever. In this context, indeed it doesn't make so much difference if you cannot distinguish between two in DBT;
2 Trying to design/modify better equipment. Here it is absolutely essential to have some scientific, reproducible way to find out if there are or are not any differences. Otherwise, the effort amounts to nothing more than repackaging a similar amp. But I have the feeling that most DIY'ers want to improve it (excluding people like circlotron who's perverted purpose is just to be waaaay different - just joking of course).
I like to try new designs to make things "better" , so I need some objective way to assess performance. Other than that, if it sounds good, it IS good.
Jan Didden
Peter Daniel said:
What I'd like to agree on, is that although two amps may seem to sound the same in a blind test to a person, they might not sound the same in subjective environment, the one we are accustomed to in our usual way of listening and this should be treated as "real" reality, more important than just aesthetics. This might not appeal to everybody and of course is not the same to everybody, but in some ways it's real.
If there is some truth to what I just wrote, the blind test is useful for nothing more than just proving that we are indeed not perfect, but I am not sure if that's a limitation or an advantage.
Peter, I 100% agree with your view here. But in this forum we are mixing up two things:
1 Enjoyment of music through equipment of our own making/design whatever. In this context, indeed it doesn't make so much difference if you cannot distinguish between two in DBT;
2 Trying to design/modify better equipment. Here it is absolutely essential to have some scientific, reproducible way to find out if there are or are not any differences. Otherwise, the effort amounts to nothing more than repackaging a similar amp. But I have the feeling that most DIY'ers want to improve it (excluding people like circlotron who's perverted purpose is just to be waaaay different - just joking of course).
I like to try new designs to make things "better" , so I need some objective way to assess performance. Other than that, if it sounds good, it IS good.
Jan Didden
Re: Decaying Thread ?
(and also Hugh's previous comments about instability).
I'll basically agree with that. Just about all amps I've measured are hard to fault on frequency response and distortion; lots of open-loop gain, and therefore negative feedback, fix these up a treat.
However it's exceedingly easy to provoke and measure instability (and full-blown oscillations) in just about anything, and the effects of these are easily audible (ranging from just 'fuzziness' through inexplicably high background noise, to receiving AM radio...).
Lack of phase margin around the overall feedback loop is just one of the reasons for this. In theory, an inductive load and a resistive output impedance from the output transistors doesn't actually give phase shift in the right direction; a capacitive load will.
However, output transistors can oscillate on their own perfectly easily - an inductive load plus various stray capacitances turn them into Colpitts oscillators at the drop of a hat. (This is particularly true when the base is not being strongly driven, at the crossover point - hence you often get little burst of oscillation at crossover).
There are also 101 ways to generally couple the output signal back into the input - poor grounding, poor circuit board/wiring layout etc. (For instance, in one case the capacitance between the cases of the output transistors and the heatsink was coupling the output signal into some dodgy grounding, which was enough to start longwave radio transmissions).
So these days I don't spend much time agonising about 0.1dB in the frequency response. I *do* spend a lot of time connecting the amp up to nasty sources and loads and poking about the output with a scope...
Cheers
IH
(and also Hugh's previous comments about instability).
I'll basically agree with that. Just about all amps I've measured are hard to fault on frequency response and distortion; lots of open-loop gain, and therefore negative feedback, fix these up a treat.
However it's exceedingly easy to provoke and measure instability (and full-blown oscillations) in just about anything, and the effects of these are easily audible (ranging from just 'fuzziness' through inexplicably high background noise, to receiving AM radio...).
Lack of phase margin around the overall feedback loop is just one of the reasons for this. In theory, an inductive load and a resistive output impedance from the output transistors doesn't actually give phase shift in the right direction; a capacitive load will.
However, output transistors can oscillate on their own perfectly easily - an inductive load plus various stray capacitances turn them into Colpitts oscillators at the drop of a hat. (This is particularly true when the base is not being strongly driven, at the crossover point - hence you often get little burst of oscillation at crossover).
There are also 101 ways to generally couple the output signal back into the input - poor grounding, poor circuit board/wiring layout etc. (For instance, in one case the capacitance between the cases of the output transistors and the heatsink was coupling the output signal into some dodgy grounding, which was enough to start longwave radio transmissions).
So these days I don't spend much time agonising about 0.1dB in the frequency response. I *do* spend a lot of time connecting the amp up to nasty sources and loads and poking about the output with a scope...
Cheers
IH
on that salutary note...
folks may find the views of Katsu-san interesting.....
http://www.gem.hi-ho.ne.jp/katsu-san/english_guide.html
folks may find the views of Katsu-san interesting.....
http://www.gem.hi-ho.ne.jp/katsu-san/english_guide.html
Getting Off Subject...
Glad I gave you such a laugh....
Violin varnishes are reported to make differences - why not paint ?.
Eric.
PS - That should have beenTurbosound FAQ's
Glad I gave you such a laugh....
Violin varnishes are reported to make differences - why not paint ?.
Eric.
PS - That should have beenTurbosound FAQ's
Food for thought
http://w3.mit.edu/cheever/www/cheever_thesis.pdf
Check this site out and learn some more my "audiophile" friends
/Peter
http://w3.mit.edu/cheever/www/cheever_thesis.pdf
Check this site out and learn some more my "audiophile" friends
/Peter
Interesting - he's weighting higher-order distortion products according to how much they may be masked by ear-generated distortion, which sounds very reasonable.
(What's slightly odd from his "TAD" equation is that you get a better TAD figure from an amplifier which exactly mimics the ear's harmonic distortion than one which produces none whatsoever; looks to me like it needs a little tweaking).
Also, I was really hoping he would go on to measure TAD of his two chosen amplifiers, and show that the Hafler fared poorly compared to the tube amp. But he doesn't - to quote "Calculation of the TAD is unnecessary" - and this really lets his argument down at the crucial moment.
Critics may point out that he compared just two amplifiers of very different character in a single environment using one type of source material. One could call forward a large number of guitarists who would reliably distinguish and prefer a tube amp over a solid-state one. That doesn't of itself prove the tube amp is a more "correct" amplifier.
(Aside: he did the listening tests with "a set of 1960's Radio Shack 16 ohm PA monitors". Er, what?)
So, the basic theory is appealing, but the experimental technique lets it down.
Cheers
IH
(What's slightly odd from his "TAD" equation is that you get a better TAD figure from an amplifier which exactly mimics the ear's harmonic distortion than one which produces none whatsoever; looks to me like it needs a little tweaking).
Also, I was really hoping he would go on to measure TAD of his two chosen amplifiers, and show that the Hafler fared poorly compared to the tube amp. But he doesn't - to quote "Calculation of the TAD is unnecessary" - and this really lets his argument down at the crucial moment.
Critics may point out that he compared just two amplifiers of very different character in a single environment using one type of source material. One could call forward a large number of guitarists who would reliably distinguish and prefer a tube amp over a solid-state one. That doesn't of itself prove the tube amp is a more "correct" amplifier.
(Aside: he did the listening tests with "a set of 1960's Radio Shack 16 ohm PA monitors". Er, what?)
So, the basic theory is appealing, but the experimental technique lets it down.
Cheers
IH
Re: Food for thought
...i have had the oportunity to examine cheevers thesis, (thanks pan), and i fear the initial assumptions made, and references cited to justify the work are fataly flawed.
He gives prominance to a subjective review of the cary amp. in 'stereophile', whose lack of intellectual rigor and consistency is legend....for instance, the cary amp.'s lack of global feedback is given fulsome credit for the amps. performance, but we need only recall the Halcro dubbed the best amp. in the world by the same periodical, uses a hefty feedback factor.
Mr. Cheever cites Matti Otala's work on TIM, but sadly appears to
not to be cognisant of the fact that TIM, SID have been demonstrated to be a red herring of the Monster variety.....see P. Baxandal series in wireless world 1978-1979, whose name is conspicuosly missing from this thesis....
...considering that the author subsequently cites Dr. Cabot of Audio Precision at a later stage, i find it inexplicable that he failed to mention an extremely important AES paper by the good Dr. 'Comparison of non-linear distortion measurement methods' ,(surely an oxymoron? )
http://audioprecision.com/publicati...Non-linear_Distortion_Measurement_Methods.pdf
I have difficulty in accepting that this ommision was accidental, as many figures in this thesis are infact directly copied from other publications on the audio precision website.....
Pan said:http://w3.mit.edu/cheever/www/cheever_thesis.pdf
Check this site out and learn some more my "audiophile" friends
/Peter
...i have had the oportunity to examine cheevers thesis, (thanks pan), and i fear the initial assumptions made, and references cited to justify the work are fataly flawed.
He gives prominance to a subjective review of the cary amp. in 'stereophile', whose lack of intellectual rigor and consistency is legend....for instance, the cary amp.'s lack of global feedback is given fulsome credit for the amps. performance, but we need only recall the Halcro dubbed the best amp. in the world by the same periodical, uses a hefty feedback factor.
Mr. Cheever cites Matti Otala's work on TIM, but sadly appears to
not to be cognisant of the fact that TIM, SID have been demonstrated to be a red herring of the Monster variety.....see P. Baxandal series in wireless world 1978-1979, whose name is conspicuosly missing from this thesis....
...considering that the author subsequently cites Dr. Cabot of Audio Precision at a later stage, i find it inexplicable that he failed to mention an extremely important AES paper by the good Dr. 'Comparison of non-linear distortion measurement methods' ,(surely an oxymoron?
)http://audioprecision.com/publicati...Non-linear_Distortion_Measurement_Methods.pdf
I have difficulty in accepting that this ommision was accidental, as many figures in this thesis are infact directly copied from other publications on the audio precision website.....
Hello fellows!
I do not suggest that the text should be read as a bible, but simply thought that there was some strong points and interesting parts, that I wanted to point out. I´m not "surprised" there is flaws in the reasoning (there always seems to be in audio discussions)
I have not read every word yet but will when I have time .
Cheers
/Peter
I do not suggest that the text should be read as a bible, but simply thought that there was some strong points and interesting parts, that I wanted to point out. I´m not "surprised" there is flaws in the reasoning (there always seems to be in audio discussions
)I have not read every word yet but will when I have time .
Cheers
/Peter
aye carumba 1117
One thousand one hundred sixteen posts in 10 days, I'm exhausted. I just joined this forum so I couldn't participate in this thread 'cause I wasn't here yet. Anyhow, the subject itself is pretty much exhausted, but I've just got to make a few comments. Firstly I have you all at a disadvantage, as after all this discussion, I think I know you all quite well, and I'm new here. The only thing I can do to remedy this is write a long post, and you'll know me pretty well by the end.
SY, I'm flying to Napa, and buying a bottle of fine Napa Valley plonk, and you and I are going to have a good laugh about this thread, discuss my hero, James Randi, (no I haven't read flim flam yet, have you read "The Faith Healers"?) And maybe listen to a system so poorly resolving you can't hear the difference between amplifiers. He He. BTW I have the perfect book for you, it's called "The Heathens Guide to World Religion" and I read it cover to cover in one sitting. I'll send you details if you like.
Barista, your 'order of magnitude' argument was utter brilliance, bravo. Anyone continuing to cling to the idea of audible differences in cables after that one, whoa.
Fred, you owe Jorge a very big, heartfelt apology. After you so ineloquently lambasted him for bad language in his posts, you went on to post with horrible syntax, bad grammer, bad spelling, (spell checker won't pick the difference between to and too) post, after annoying post. If you don't apologize, I'll go back though this mess and post 20 or 30 of your most obvious examples. And so help me, if you respond to this post by nit-picking my error's I'll come to your house and make you listen to everything through zip cord. I would never tell anyone they should correct their errors, I'm not telling you to now, I just can't stand a hypocrite. And wasn't it you who called someone "my apprentice"? Poor form, very poor form.
Frank, you may remember me from a post I made about a tube failure I had in my new OTL. You told me the resistor tying the suppressor grid to the plate needed to be non-inductive. Good one. You really had me going there, sucked me right in, that's funny. I was hunting hi and low through all my catalogues for 5W non-inductive resistors. Nearly spent like 200 bucks to replace all 16 of 'em. Ha Ha
And THAT folks is why DBLT's are important. If someone wants to go putting a bunch of pricey stuff in their amp that can't be picked in a BLT, fine, but don't tell me to do it like you know it to be true, when you haven't done the due diligence to determine if that really makes an audible difference. And no, for many on this list having your six year old, wife, witch doctor, whatever walk past and unsolicited say "wow what a difference" is not not not not not due diligence. NOT. Now, maybe it would make a difference, (non inductive resistor I mean) perhaps there is someone out there who could explain to me why, but based on what I've read here, I certainly can't take Frank's word on it. Riddle me this Batman, at what frequency would a 5W WW resistor start to attenuate the signal, and by how much, and further if it's just tying the grid to the plate which has no such resistor on it, why would it matter anyway?
NW, while I have to say this has been a most entertaining, maddening, enlightening, and certainly informative thread, whatever you got thrown at you, you deserved, and you had to take it without responding or the game would have been over. What you did was tantamount to walking into a Church, uninvited, on Sunday morning, walking up to the pulpit, and saying "from everything I've read, the Bible as you have today has no historical lineage starting before 400AD, and has been translated from Greek to English by a bunch of biased clerics. How can any of you come to any rational conclusion that it is the word of God?" Might be construed as a bit rude don't ya think? That being said, I'm glad you did, it's been a heluva ride eh?
At the beginning of this, I was crestfallen. I had just replaced my old Rotel RA 840 with my own scratch built version of Bruce Rozenblit's 80W OTL. It sounded much better than the Rotel, especially in the bass and detail. Or did it? How can I be sure? I just hooked it up and went wow, what a difference! My wife (non audiophile) thought it was quite an impressive difference too. But the more I read, the more I knew, if I was to make any claims as to the truth of this difference, I was going to have to blind test them. Probably, there is no difference. That's kind of a bummer, but, throw me a bone here, when I eventually have it driving ESL's on high dynamic range stuff at high SPL's(like my present fav, The MSO's 'Planets') It will make a difference yes? The good news is, I've never been able to hear any differences when I changed any cables, I figured that the diff was very subtle and I might notice it when I got a better handle on the room acoustics and had a little more listening experience. After reading Barista's posts, well, any Golden Ears out there interested in a pair of Cardas Quadlink 4's? Fabulous low level detail, pinpoint imaging, and tonal accuracy is unsurpassed by any cable at any price. Seriously, they're going up on the trading post. Luckily, due to my skepticism, I made all my own interconnects (shielded twisted pairs) and while they are quite pleasing (aesthetically of course) they only cost me the connectors and jacket material, so I didn't sink alot into them. I'll be DBLTing my DAC next, compared to the DAC in my CDP, and if no difference, BAM, trading post. This is quite liberating, no more worries about auricap vs solen, tube rolling, I'm free! Free to spend my money where it will make a difference. HA!
Someone should print this thread and publish it as a book, it's the best one I've read in a long time. Comedy, (SY when you posted that bit about "you shouldn't, I spelled perception wrong" milk came out my nose I swear) tragedy,(Carlos, I don't know how anyone could completely miss the point as many times as you did, and you really should get that op amp obsession looked at before it spreads) romance, (ok there was no romance thank God) and of course, loads of really good information. I have come to a pretty solid point of view based on this thread, that as I've been suspecting for some time now, most of the Magazine EQ reviews are complete dung. I always thought it odd that they didn't listen blind, now I know why.
Best regards to all,
Christopher,
I'm getting off the steregoround right here.
I'M FREE, I'M FREE, I'M FREE. HE HE HE
One thousand one hundred sixteen posts in 10 days, I'm exhausted. I just joined this forum so I couldn't participate in this thread 'cause I wasn't here yet. Anyhow, the subject itself is pretty much exhausted, but I've just got to make a few comments. Firstly I have you all at a disadvantage, as after all this discussion, I think I know you all quite well, and I'm new here. The only thing I can do to remedy this is write a long post, and you'll know me pretty well by the end.
SY, I'm flying to Napa, and buying a bottle of fine Napa Valley plonk, and you and I are going to have a good laugh about this thread, discuss my hero, James Randi, (no I haven't read flim flam yet, have you read "The Faith Healers"?) And maybe listen to a system so poorly resolving you can't hear the difference between amplifiers. He He. BTW I have the perfect book for you, it's called "The Heathens Guide to World Religion" and I read it cover to cover in one sitting. I'll send you details if you like.
Barista, your 'order of magnitude' argument was utter brilliance, bravo. Anyone continuing to cling to the idea of audible differences in cables after that one, whoa.
Fred, you owe Jorge a very big, heartfelt apology. After you so ineloquently lambasted him for bad language in his posts, you went on to post with horrible syntax, bad grammer, bad spelling, (spell checker won't pick the difference between to and too) post, after annoying post. If you don't apologize, I'll go back though this mess and post 20 or 30 of your most obvious examples. And so help me, if you respond to this post by nit-picking my error's I'll come to your house and make you listen to everything through zip cord. I would never tell anyone they should correct their errors, I'm not telling you to now, I just can't stand a hypocrite. And wasn't it you who called someone "my apprentice"? Poor form, very poor form.
Frank, you may remember me from a post I made about a tube failure I had in my new OTL. You told me the resistor tying the suppressor grid to the plate needed to be non-inductive. Good one. You really had me going there, sucked me right in, that's funny. I was hunting hi and low through all my catalogues for 5W non-inductive resistors. Nearly spent like 200 bucks to replace all 16 of 'em. Ha Ha
And THAT folks is why DBLT's are important. If someone wants to go putting a bunch of pricey stuff in their amp that can't be picked in a BLT, fine, but don't tell me to do it like you know it to be true, when you haven't done the due diligence to determine if that really makes an audible difference. And no, for many on this list having your six year old, wife, witch doctor, whatever walk past and unsolicited say "wow what a difference" is not not not not not due diligence. NOT. Now, maybe it would make a difference, (non inductive resistor I mean) perhaps there is someone out there who could explain to me why, but based on what I've read here, I certainly can't take Frank's word on it. Riddle me this Batman, at what frequency would a 5W WW resistor start to attenuate the signal, and by how much, and further if it's just tying the grid to the plate which has no such resistor on it, why would it matter anyway?
NW, while I have to say this has been a most entertaining, maddening, enlightening, and certainly informative thread, whatever you got thrown at you, you deserved, and you had to take it without responding or the game would have been over. What you did was tantamount to walking into a Church, uninvited, on Sunday morning, walking up to the pulpit, and saying "from everything I've read, the Bible as you have today has no historical lineage starting before 400AD, and has been translated from Greek to English by a bunch of biased clerics. How can any of you come to any rational conclusion that it is the word of God?" Might be construed as a bit rude don't ya think? That being said, I'm glad you did, it's been a heluva ride eh?
At the beginning of this, I was crestfallen. I had just replaced my old Rotel RA 840 with my own scratch built version of Bruce Rozenblit's 80W OTL. It sounded much better than the Rotel, especially in the bass and detail. Or did it? How can I be sure? I just hooked it up and went wow, what a difference! My wife (non audiophile) thought it was quite an impressive difference too. But the more I read, the more I knew, if I was to make any claims as to the truth of this difference, I was going to have to blind test them. Probably, there is no difference. That's kind of a bummer, but, throw me a bone here, when I eventually have it driving ESL's on high dynamic range stuff at high SPL's(like my present fav, The MSO's 'Planets') It will make a difference yes? The good news is, I've never been able to hear any differences when I changed any cables, I figured that the diff was very subtle and I might notice it when I got a better handle on the room acoustics and had a little more listening experience. After reading Barista's posts, well, any Golden Ears out there interested in a pair of Cardas Quadlink 4's? Fabulous low level detail, pinpoint imaging, and tonal accuracy is unsurpassed by any cable at any price. Seriously, they're going up on the trading post. Luckily, due to my skepticism, I made all my own interconnects (shielded twisted pairs) and while they are quite pleasing (aesthetically of course) they only cost me the connectors and jacket material, so I didn't sink alot into them. I'll be DBLTing my DAC next, compared to the DAC in my CDP, and if no difference, BAM, trading post. This is quite liberating, no more worries about auricap vs solen, tube rolling, I'm free! Free to spend my money where it will make a difference. HA!
Someone should print this thread and publish it as a book, it's the best one I've read in a long time. Comedy, (SY when you posted that bit about "you shouldn't, I spelled perception wrong" milk came out my nose I swear) tragedy,(Carlos, I don't know how anyone could completely miss the point as many times as you did, and you really should get that op amp obsession looked at before it spreads) romance, (ok there was no romance thank God) and of course, loads of really good information. I have come to a pretty solid point of view based on this thread, that as I've been suspecting for some time now, most of the Magazine EQ reviews are complete dung. I always thought it odd that they didn't listen blind, now I know why.
Best regards to all,
Christopher,
I'm getting off the steregoround right here.
I'M FREE, I'M FREE, I'M FREE. HE HE HE
BACKSTABBER?
Hi,
And where am I telling you to go spend 200 silly $s on non-inductive wirewounds?
You know, there are other 5Wers around that aren't half as inductive as WWs and don't cost an arm and a legg.
And if you can't find them than it's still O.K. to put some 2W metalfilms in // to arrive at the 100R and to be able to take the 5W dissipation.
Also if you believe that using inductive (hence non-linear) components willy-nilly than that's up to you...
You asked for advise, I gave it my best shot...next time I'll think twice about helping a wiseguy out.
Cheers,
Hi,
And where am I telling you to go spend 200 silly $s on non-inductive wirewounds?
You know, there are other 5Wers around that aren't half as inductive as WWs and don't cost an arm and a legg.
And if you can't find them than it's still O.K. to put some 2W metalfilms in // to arrive at the 100R and to be able to take the 5W dissipation.
Also if you believe that using inductive (hence non-linear) components willy-nilly than that's up to you...
You asked for advise, I gave it my best shot...next time I'll think twice about helping a wiseguy out.
Cheers,
- Status
- Not open for further replies.